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Compas first, complexity later??
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PacoPaella
Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004
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 RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (in reply to buleria)
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I think the problem was never what Todd said, since when you hear him play its obvious he knows what he talks about. Its more how he said it. Because, you know, being a good guitarist does not neccssarily imply that you are also a good guitar teacher; it takes some empathy and some psychological and methodical skills to teach someone, regardless of the topic.
Over here, teachers get taught only the very basics of their topic on university. Then, their education focusses on the methodical and didactical part, because to teach anyone but the very far advanced, its far more important to know how to motivate people and give them the feeling that whatever they did has some value. This is even more true for a topic that is being learned in recreational time since people get especially quickly demotivated there. I know i am not popular with this statement but i think this is where Todd is the student, and people like Ricardo are the masters.
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Date Sep. 25 2006 19:58:40
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (in reply to jb)
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quote:
LOL... you sound like me... aren't you working through Gerhard's instructional book?
Yeah, thats right- I am. But it doesn't explain compas thoroughly before it teaches you other techniques. Which is why I know how to play tangos and soleas, but don't quite know what makes them tangos and soleas.
For that part, I have a teacher:
www.stevehomes.org
What I don't get from the GM book, I go to my teacher for, so he can fill in the gaps.
But at £30 per hour, I have to think (and budget) carefully before booking lessons.
As for playing for a dance class to learn compas, well... lets just say that it wouldn't be much fun for the dancers, what with my skills. Plus, it would be like throwing me in at the deep end. But I'm sure I could learn quite a bit from going along to a dance class and merely observing carefully.
Jb
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Date Sep. 25 2006 20:33:41
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (in reply to luke.park)
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quote:
Jb-, i looked at your teacher's page, very cool i saw hes playing at the pena in london on the 21st. im thinkin of going, wud it be worthwile ya think and ya reckon you'll go?
Hi Luke,
I think you would enjoy it. Although I can't confirm exactly what he will be playing there. His older stuff is quite modern, but recently he has been involved with a few puro acts. But the guy can definitely play, and has a good sense of compas too. He's quite keen on PDL if I remember rightly. As its a "pena", I'd say he'll probably be playing traditional stuff, but you never know what to expect. I'll see whats going on that week, and send you a PM if I decide to head down there.
Cheers,
James
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Date Sep. 25 2006 21:31:31
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (in reply to buleria)
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How to learn compas? Little by little, bit by bit. By being with someone who knows it. Everyone has heard that Tomatito has great compas, but what does that mean? Does it mean that other pros go out sometimes but he doesn't? No, it means that by hearing his playing, it is obvious that he has greator freedom in playing over it than many others. That's what's it's about-first you need to understand it-that solea has twelve beats, etc, then you need to play something that fits, then learn something else, etc, until one day you can feel the compas under whatever your playing, or can improvise things and know they are in, and simply listen to others and know if they are out without counting.
Or at least develop tools (signposts) to keep you on track. Ways to mark the beat that allow you to stay with the compas when a dancer speeds up to 300bpm. (mark in twos)
Tricks like focusing on the palmas marking 7,8 in buleria while you are improvising a falseta or concentrating on the dancer's syncopations. This can keep you in. Gaining an awareness of what it sounds like and what it feels like to accent different beats in the compas. When a dancer does a big accent on &8, can you do it too and not lose it? Or are you so fixated on marking 3,6,8,10,12 that you cannot hit &8 without falling off the train? A simpler example would be in alegrias try to hear the difference between ending the compas on ten or on &10. Also, trim the first eighth note(or first two sixteenths) off a falseta that begins on one and start it on &2.
Program a midi editor with bulerias compas and then set up cymbals to accent different beats within the compas.......then hit those accents until you can do it without the cymbals. Get in a dance class. This is the sure way. Learn how to play palmas. And to recognize the different patterns. Palmas can make it so much easier to stay locked in. Don't give up-depending on your situation and the amount of contact you have with more experienced people, it could take a while to sink in. It's a long pursuit except for the gifted-I wonder if Tomatito has anything left to learn about compas?
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Date Sep. 25 2006 23:16:05
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (in reply to buleria)
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People want praise from others they look up to. If instead comes criticism, it is easy to get upset. I really don't see what the big deal is, but it all comes down to communication. Certain people would not speak in a certain way to others FACE to FACE, verses typing on the internet. This goes for discussions on taste, advice on playing, everything. That is the price we pay for communication on the internet. Everyone gives there 2cents regardless, but face to face interactions are very different.
Anyway, compas is sensitive topic. I got banned from FT for making certain ENCOURAGING comments in regards to tempo. Anything can become an arguement. In a live playing situation, there is little argueing one can do with a metronome or drum machine. Professionally, the drum machine has solved a lot of personal issues and improved everyone's level in my experience. In terms of flamenco, you are not going to get any sugar coated comments from pros regarding compas. It is either you have it or you don't.
Personally I think there is a way for folks to learn, here is the order. 1. tempo. Learn how to use a metronome and keep a beat. That is hardest part. 2. groove. Learn how to keep track of all the little sounds between the beat, feeling everything that happens in time. 3.Synchopation and swing. Being able to play against the time without losing tempo or groove is the final goal. Lots of folks try to do complex things rhythmically, when they can't hold down a beat first. The give away is when someone complains about how a metronome/drum machine has no "feeling" so they don't practice with it.
One more thing regarding dance accomp. The way drummers advance is to go through rudiments. Typical rhythmic phrases. The flamenco guitarist learns lots of "rudiments" relevant to flamenco compas, from the dance class. And they are typically drilled over and over. So it IS a great way to develop compas. So long as the teacher of the class has control over tempo/groove/synchopation as discussed. There are infact a few dance teachers out there showing students things that are too complex without everyone having the basic idea of tempo down. The guitarist finding himself adjusting tempo constantly to match with the dance class, is not helping himself or the class. (there are times when the tempo deliberately moves, but that is not what I am refering to.)
Ricardo
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Date Sep. 26 2006 3:28:20
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