Compas first, complexity later?? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Compas first, complexity later??: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=44373



Message

buleria -> Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 16:56:03)

First of all, I don't have a clue who Todd is and this post isn't intended to 'have a go' at anyone but why is he being called rude? As far as I can tell all he does is mention when things are not in compas. If they are not in compas then how can it be flamenco? I am honestly curious about this. In a dance class I will teach students a very basic buleria - which is obviously a difficult rhythm for many to grasp. Only when they have securely grasped this will I progress to more complex footwork/contratiempo etc. I would never say - have a look at this Sara Baras dvd and have a go at that. And yet, some guitarists seem to want to learn complex falsettas first and put the compas on hold?? Until when? I think it would be very frustrating - even impossible - to go back to basics once you have been playing around in this way? Maybe I'm wrong about this and it is a good way to learn - but I'd rather hear a simple tangos played in time than an 'Entre dos Aguas' that went all over the shop? If Todd is being rude then people have been rude to me all through my study of flamenco and I'm glad they have been. Praise is easy - compas is much more difficult! Karenanne



duende -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 17:46:03)

I belive Todd can come a cross as a bit forward and blunt.
For my part i love that. He is realy helpful if you don´t take it the wrong way.

I mean.. he sure will tell you if he like it as well so it´s not like he always finds the faults.

Todd´s great

Henrik



ToddK -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 18:13:39)

[:)] [:D] [:)]



Florian -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 18:35:59)

quote:

[:)][:D][:)]


lol

Noone is encouraging noncompas here we just trying to figure out the right balance between knowing when to help and knowing when to encourage, as a teacher i am sure u know how important that can be. thats all.

the rest is just different people expressing different opinions, i think it was kind refershing, everyone had they'r say and noone in peticular got picked on, and if they did someone said something that contradicted it.

Some criticised Todk some stood up for him, so there u go [:)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 19:06:08)

It all depends on how important you feel that "rhythm" is in music. I would say that its very important in any form of music, but especially so in Flamenco. I'm told its wise to master Compas BEFORE working on other techniques, but personally, I get impatient and want to rush ahead to play stuff that actually sounds good.

But I have recently resolved to focus specifically on compas before getting too deep into the other stuff...

Jb



PacoPaella -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 19:58:40)

I think the problem was never what Todd said, since when you hear him play its obvious he knows what he talks about. Its more how he said it. Because, you know, being a good guitarist does not neccssarily imply that you are also a good guitar teacher; it takes some empathy and some psychological and methodical skills to teach someone, regardless of the topic.

Over here, teachers get taught only the very basics of their topic on university. Then, their education focusses on the methodical and didactical part, because to teach anyone but the very far advanced, its far more important to know how to motivate people and give them the feeling that whatever they did has some value. This is even more true for a topic that is being learned in recreational time since people get especially quickly demotivated there. I know i am not popular with this statement but i think this is where Todd is the student, and people like Ricardo are the masters.



Rain -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:11:19)

It seems to me that when someone is told they are not in COMPAS then they should also be informed how to play in compas. And even given approaches to take to better understand the compas of a certain form.

So, any ideas on how best to internalize a COMPAS?



jb -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:18:55)

quote:

'm told its wise to master Compas BEFORE working on other techniques, but personally, I get impatient and want to rush ahead to play stuff that actually sounds good.


LOL... you sound like me... aren't you working through Gerhard's instructional book?



buleria -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:20:01)

Playing for a dance class would be a good approach to improving compas - but then I would say that wouldn't I??[:D]



Ron.M -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:22:07)

quote:

So, any ideas on how best to internalize a COMPAS?


Well, the easiest way to internalize compás IMO is to take a compás pill with a glass of water.
The other option is to listen to reams and reams of Flamenco stuff.

IMO the intermediate position is to always be sure of what you are playing and why it sounds that way.

Never just "wing it" and go with a memorized duplicate of the recording.

It will let you down.

cheers

Ron



Florian -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:27:21)

quote:

Playing for a dance class would be a good approach to improving compas - but then I would say that wouldn't I??


you would still be right[:D]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:33:41)

quote:

LOL... you sound like me... aren't you working through Gerhard's instructional book?


Yeah, thats right- I am. But it doesn't explain compas thoroughly before it teaches you other techniques. Which is why I know how to play tangos and soleas, but don't quite know what makes them tangos and soleas.

For that part, I have a teacher:

www.stevehomes.org

What I don't get from the GM book, I go to my teacher for, so he can fill in the gaps.

But at £30 per hour, I have to think (and budget) carefully before booking lessons.

As for playing for a dance class to learn compas, well... lets just say that it wouldn't be much fun for the dancers, what with my skills. Plus, it would be like throwing me in at the deep end. But I'm sure I could learn quite a bit from going along to a dance class and merely observing carefully.

Jb



Taranto -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:40:38)

jb, did you finally receive your guitar? or at least the promised gift?
I noticed the thread you started about this subject is moved to recycle bin.



Florian -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:42:11)

JBASHORUN a while back i posted compas tracks with my voice counting it out ([:D] i still lough everytime i think of it) but do you have em ? find em, i think they might be of good use to you.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:46:08)

Actually, seeing as compas is so important, we should dedicate a section on the forum specifically to compas, and how to understand it. Visual and audio examples could be included from various sources. Todd would be most welcome to be the first to contribute his method.

Jb



JBASHORUN -> [Deleted] (Sep. 25 2006 20:48:23)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 11 2011 19:46:30



koella -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 20:59:36)

30 Pound per hour ?[>:]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 21:03:59)

quote:

30 Pound per hour ?


Yes, I know [&o]

But he is a great teacher- he taught me a solea within the first lesson. Plus he is patient and good at communicating his knowledge.

But also, he does know how to play very well, which helps!

I just wish I could afford lessons more regularly...

Jb

PS: my teacher says that compas is possibly the most important part of Flamenco. But what did I ask him to teach me when we first met? The tremolo technique!!! I guess that just sums up my mentality.[8|]



luke.park -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 21:12:31)

i had the same problem of having to relearn everything in compas, una experiencia muy terrible, but now i can really play and appreciate FLAMENCO! [:)]

yo -whoops, Jb-, i looked at your teacher's page, very cool i saw hes playing at the pena in london on the 21st. im thinkin of going, wud it be worthwile ya think and ya reckon you'll go?[8|]

luke



JBASHORUN -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 21:31:31)

quote:

Jb-, i looked at your teacher's page, very cool i saw hes playing at the pena in london on the 21st. im thinkin of going, wud it be worthwile ya think and ya reckon you'll go?


Hi Luke,

I think you would enjoy it. Although I can't confirm exactly what he will be playing there. His older stuff is quite modern, but recently he has been involved with a few puro acts. But the guy can definitely play, and has a good sense of compas too. He's quite keen on PDL if I remember rightly. As its a "pena", I'd say he'll probably be playing traditional stuff, but you never know what to expect. I'll see whats going on that week, and send you a PM if I decide to head down there.

Cheers,

James



luke.park -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 21:39:24)

quote:

I'll see whats going on that week, and send you a PM if I decide to head down there.



niiiice, wud be gd as i am a member but not ACTUALLY been down there at all, tis only bout 50 mins on train! coolies.

p.s(soz 4 hijak, mwaha...[&:])



Florian -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 21:40:28)

JBASHORUN just check the old audio uploads

I remembered it emailed some stuff to a few people mibe they can come foward and do the same for you.

I would have deleted it after.



Mark2 -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 25 2006 23:16:05)

How to learn compas? Little by little, bit by bit. By being with someone who knows it. Everyone has heard that Tomatito has great compas, but what does that mean? Does it mean that other pros go out sometimes but he doesn't? No, it means that by hearing his playing, it is obvious that he has greator freedom in playing over it than many others. That's what's it's about-first you need to understand it-that solea has twelve beats, etc, then you need to play something that fits, then learn something else, etc, until one day you can feel the compas under whatever your playing, or can improvise things and know they are in, and simply listen to others and know if they are out without counting.

Or at least develop tools (signposts) to keep you on track. Ways to mark the beat that allow you to stay with the compas when a dancer speeds up to 300bpm. (mark in twos)
Tricks like focusing on the palmas marking 7,8 in buleria while you are improvising a falseta or concentrating on the dancer's syncopations. This can keep you in. Gaining an awareness of what it sounds like and what it feels like to accent different beats in the compas. When a dancer does a big accent on &8, can you do it too and not lose it? Or are you so fixated on marking 3,6,8,10,12 that you cannot hit &8 without falling off the train? A simpler example would be in alegrias try to hear the difference between ending the compas on ten or on &10. Also, trim the first eighth note(or first two sixteenths) off a falseta that begins on one and start it on &2.

Program a midi editor with bulerias compas and then set up cymbals to accent different beats within the compas.......then hit those accents until you can do it without the cymbals. Get in a dance class. This is the sure way. Learn how to play palmas. And to recognize the different patterns. Palmas can make it so much easier to stay locked in. Don't give up-depending on your situation and the amount of contact you have with more experienced people, it could take a while to sink in. It's a long pursuit except for the gifted-I wonder if Tomatito has anything left to learn about compas?



Ricardo -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 26 2006 3:28:20)

People want praise from others they look up to. If instead comes criticism, it is easy to get upset. I really don't see what the big deal is, but it all comes down to communication. Certain people would not speak in a certain way to others FACE to FACE, verses typing on the internet. This goes for discussions on taste, advice on playing, everything. That is the price we pay for communication on the internet. Everyone gives there 2cents regardless, but face to face interactions are very different.

Anyway, compas is sensitive topic. I got banned from FT for making certain ENCOURAGING comments in regards to tempo. Anything can become an arguement. In a live playing situation, there is little argueing one can do with a metronome or drum machine. Professionally, the drum machine has solved a lot of personal issues and improved everyone's level in my experience. In terms of flamenco, you are not going to get any sugar coated comments from pros regarding compas. It is either you have it or you don't.

Personally I think there is a way for folks to learn, here is the order. 1. tempo. Learn how to use a metronome and keep a beat. That is hardest part. 2. groove. Learn how to keep track of all the little sounds between the beat, feeling everything that happens in time. 3.Synchopation and swing. Being able to play against the time without losing tempo or groove is the final goal. Lots of folks try to do complex things rhythmically, when they can't hold down a beat first. The give away is when someone complains about how a metronome/drum machine has no "feeling" so they don't practice with it.

One more thing regarding dance accomp. The way drummers advance is to go through rudiments. Typical rhythmic phrases. The flamenco guitarist learns lots of "rudiments" relevant to flamenco compas, from the dance class. And they are typically drilled over and over. So it IS a great way to develop compas. So long as the teacher of the class has control over tempo/groove/synchopation as discussed. There are infact a few dance teachers out there showing students things that are too complex without everyone having the basic idea of tempo down. The guitarist finding himself adjusting tempo constantly to match with the dance class, is not helping himself or the class. (there are times when the tempo deliberately moves, but that is not what I am refering to.)

Ricardo



jb -> RE: Compas first, complexity later?? (Sep. 26 2006 4:06:08)

quote:

jb, did you finally receive your guitar? or at least the promised gift?
I noticed the thread you started about this subject is moved to recycle bin.


I don't want to open another can of worms here... but I spoke with the mod and I will be posting a final follow up on ole-flamenco (albeit locked) when the guitar arrives...

For now.. Im playing on a crap azz classical guitar... oh well...



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET