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Couple of beginner questions...
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DoctorX2k2
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
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 RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to jb)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jb
New to the forum, and new to flamenco guitar methods....
So I was wondering if some of the more experienced guitar players might be able to shed a little light on some of my unanswered questions. I ordered the Gerhard DVD set... is this suitable for beginners? I am coming from less than 1 year playing a regular acoustic guitar, but need some foundational instruction to start me of on the right foot for flamenco, as I picked up a couple nasty habits on the acoustic (i.e. only playing with thumb and index fingers, etc...)
Anyways, if this dvd set is too "over the top" for a beginner... then what might you recommend? I am open to suggestions. Also, I see alot of flamenco players using a capo (cejilla) across the first fret, almost as if it were "standard." Is this a necessity? Does it bring out more of a "flamenco" sound? I have a Sanchis 2F on order if it makes a difference.
Thanks in advance for the help
-JB
I'm exactly where you are. Bought an accoustic guitar a year ago but fell in love with flamenco. I also developped a few bad habits from accoustic... but it's never too late to fix things up, especially when you begin.
I had ordered Graf-Martinez methods on Amazon but they screwed up and couldn't find it, so I ordered on flamencon last week. Hopefully, I should recieve the whole package (books, CDs and DVD for both volumes) this week. I've been told it's one of the best method for beginners so I'll try it out.
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Date Jul. 18 2006 2:37:48
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to jb)
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I began flamenco guitar studies about a year ago, coming from a classical background which I feel helped me a lot at the beginning. Given your background here is how I would approach it.
Find a teacher. If that is not possible, which it likely isn't then I would:
1. Get Christopher Parkening's Guitar Method Vol I. This is mostly classical technique, however most, if not all, are used in flamenco. It will fill in a lot of gaps in the fundamentals of nylon string playing that you are not going to find in Gerhard's books, though they are very good. Moreover, Parkening will get you started reading standard notation, if you don't already and perhaps more importantly get you familiar with common articulations and rhythm/time and key signature structure. Is reading standard notation necessary? Probably not, but it is very, very helpful. On the other hand understanding articulations and commonly used symbology is going to be necessary. If for no other reason, I would get Parkening for a reference book, but IMO it will ease your introduction to nylon string and flamenco considerably.
2. Get Gerhard's Flamenco Guitar Method Vol 1, you probably won't be ready for Vol 2 for quite a while. This is principally an introduction to flamenco methods and techniques. IMO is does assume you know some fundamental nylon string and/or classical methods and techniques such as rest and free strokes, proper left and right-hand fingerings, slurs and ties, barres, unisons and playing in more than one voice, etc, etc.
3. Get Juan Martin's Solos Flamenco Vol 1. This is principally a music book with a thorough introduction to the most common of the palos (flamenco forms). It is graded 0-5 so it will provide you with some easy flamenco music to keep your interest piqued.
The above 3 books should provide you with enough material for a couple of years worth of study.
Yes, a capo will eventually be necessary for two reasons. First it will ease some of the left-hand stretches you will eventually have to make and secondly, it is traditional to play some of the palos "capo'ed" up. This stems, I believe, from playing for a Cantaor(a) (flamenco singers) who may wish to sing the piece in a different key. Don't skimp on the Capo, get a good one as you don't want to scar-up the neck on the Sanchis and be aware that the capo for a nylon string is different from a steel string capo!!!!
Your Sanchis is going to be a great mid-level guitar!!!!! Tom at LaFalseta can probably get you most of the above books as well.
One final piece of advice and again this is just my opinion. Your are going to start to hear a lot about compas which is basically an accent structure that overlies the time signature and will vary by palos. Forget about it for 6 months or so!! However, it will eventually become important if your going to play puro-flamenco and/or if you will be accompanying a cantaor(a) or bailaor(a)'s, dancers.
Here are some sites you will find useful:
Glossary 1
Glossary 2
Sal's Site
Comaps Intro
List/description of Palos w/MP3
Welcome and good luck. If you're like me you're going to find this journey into flamenco, though frustrating at the beginning, well worth taking.
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Date Jul. 18 2006 10:54:09
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to Gecko)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gecko
1. Get Christopher Parkening's Guitar Method Vol I. This is mostly classical technique, however most, if not all, are used in flamenco. It will fill in a lot of gaps in the fundamentals of nylon string playing that you are not going to find in Gerhard's books, though they are very good. Moreover, Parkening will get you started reading standard notation,
(snip)
Your are going to start to hear a lot about compas which is basically an accent structure that overlies the time signature and will vary by palos. Forget about it for 6 months or so!! However, it will eventually become important if your going to play puro-flamenco and/or if you will be accompanying a cantaor(a) or bailaor(a)'s, dancers.
I disagree with most of the above:
-A classical guitar method is sending a beginner in the wrong direction and they will be wasting time on irrelevant things whilst also learning technique they will have to unlearn later.
-learning to read standard notation is probably the least important thing a beginner needs to worry about. Flamenco is learned and taught by listening/watching and copying, not by reading from scores. I agree that learning sn is broadly a useful skill for anyone who plays an instrument but there are just SO many more important things to get your head round in flamenco...
-The stuff about compas is misleading. Its not just an accent structure eg you could play bulerias and have any number of different ways of accenting the compas. Put it another way, you could play accents in the right places and still be out of compas.
More importantly, your implication is that compas only matters for 'flamenco puro' or if you are accompanying. That's simply not true. No compas = no flamenco. There is no such thing as flamenco where compas is an optional extra.
Good methods (eg Graf martinez or Juans El Arte book) will teach basic technique AND give you some basic flamenco music in compas to practice the techniques.
_____________________________
Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
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Date Jul. 18 2006 12:34:01
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to Jon Boyes)
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Jon:
My comments were made with the assumption that, like me, JB, does not have access to a flamenco teacher and resides where there is no flamenco community so he/she can watch or hear people playing flamenco and must learn from books and DVD/CD which, undoubtedly are helpful, but only up to a certain point.
As for me as a relative beginner, I would have been completely lost at first without having some classical training and no access to a flamenco guitar teacher.
Your point on compas and puro-flamenco is, as you know, arguably well taken, though I believe it is useless for a beginner such as JB to become embroiled in compas at first. I did and it set me back 3 months or more.
For relatively experienced players, like yourself, I think it is easy to overlook all the frustrations a beginner will have, especially one without access to a teacher or other more experienced players.
Of course JB will be the best judge of which direction he chooses to proceed.
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Date Jul. 18 2006 12:52:35
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to Jon Boyes)
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Jon:
I certainly had no intention of suggesting or, even implying, which I don't think I did, that leaning Sor, Carulli or even Tarrega, for that matter, was necessary, only that there are some techniques and methods in classical music that I found extremely helpful and an understanding of them greatly facilitated my learning experience.
Normally I would concede to a player with vastly more experience than I, like yourself. However, here let's just say we agree to disagree on the best way a beginner like JB who may or may not have access to a variety of different learning resources, should proceed.
One thing for sure is that if JB gets stuck he can always come here for help and opinions like yours and mine from two different perspectives. I would not have made the modest gains I have made this past year without your help and many others here like you. It has been greatly appreciated.
Regards!!
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Date Jul. 18 2006 13:39:25
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to jb)
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compas first, then pulgar, then chords, then rasgueado, then arpeggio, then picado, then tremolo. Ear training at ever step of the way. In order of importance and suggested order of learning. I suggest Juan Martin's solo DVD, because it starts REALLY slow, and you can use it as ear training exercise (trying to learn it by ear and not looking at the tab).
This is nonsense to ignore compas... Start from the ground up, not by getting tabs of Paco compositions and fumble through them.
If you do it in the order I suggest, you will become a solid player.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jul. 18 2006 14:33:36
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
compas first, then pulgar, then chords, then rasgueado, then arpeggio, then picado, then tremolo. Ear training at ever step of the way. In order of importance and suggested order of learning.
In that case, JB will not be needing his guitar in the near future, and neither will I. Deniz says it took him at least a year just to get the hang of Bulerias compas... so Deniz didn't practice any other techniques before that year was up? You could sit at home and practise palmas until you've mastered every palo, and not practise any other techniques in the mean time. Compas is essential, but if I didn't touch my guitar until I had mastered it, I'd still be clapping away today with my guitar safely in its case.
Jb
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Date Jul. 18 2006 15:47:47
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Couple of beginner questions... (in reply to jb)
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" rightly or wrongly I do not consider compas as a learning fundamental"
ay, ay, ay, all due respect but I hope no one even considers taking this advice! To be honest it is the worst idea I have ever seen on a flamenco forum.
jb, as far as required listening, I think it's a good idea to get some "old school" stuff in it..because the _compas_ is more clear. (that's if you consider it important). Ramon (not Carlos) Montoya, Sabicas, Paco Pena (azahara, fabulous flamenco). If you are interested in doing flamenco to a high level, you should get some Solo Compas CDs. These are basically rhythm tracks to play guitar, sing, or dance to...might start with Tangos and Solea. You can hear standard examples of the form, and you can just put it on and have the rhythm in your ear when you're doing something. Anders, the luthier gave me this idea and it's a great one.
Good luck! This art form is so rewarding and fun at all levels.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jul. 18 2006 21:48:02
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Also, never, never ask about nuevo-flamenco as it will likely spark a even more lively "debate." 