Couple of beginner questions... (Full Version)

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jb -> Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 17 2006 15:43:37)

New to the forum, and new to flamenco guitar methods....

So I was wondering if some of the more experienced guitar players might be able to shed a little light on some of my unanswered questions. I ordered the Gerhard DVD set... is this suitable for beginners? I am coming from less than 1 year playing a regular acoustic guitar, but need some foundational instruction to start me of on the right foot for flamenco, as I picked up a couple nasty habits on the acoustic (i.e. only playing with thumb and index fingers, etc...)

Anyways, if this dvd set is too "over the top" for a beginner... then what might you recommend? I am open to suggestions. Also, I see alot of flamenco players using a capo (cejilla) across the first fret, almost as if it were "standard." Is this a necessity? Does it bring out more of a "flamenco" sound? I have a Sanchis 2F on order if it makes a difference.

Thanks in advance for the help

-JB



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 17 2006 15:48:06)

jb,
standard advice--take some lessons with a flamenco teacher. IT's important to get off on right foot, and this is the way to do it.

2nd--I don't know much about the Martinez, but the Juan Martin 3 part set is an appropriate level, that I can vouch for.

capo--it gives a more flamenco sound. I recommend that you put it up on 4-5 because it will make the LH easier to start with. (the stretches are smaller up there) Then as you become more comfortable you can move it down a little. Or maybe you'll like the sound up there so much you won't want to move it!

Good luck and welcome to the club (flamenco players that is). This is a great place to ask questions. In the upload section you can upload your playing for critiques, or listen to other people to see what they are doing right and wrong.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 17 2006 20:08:29)

JB,
The Graf Martinez book is totally suitable for beginners. I am using it myself at the moment. It doesn't waste much time on small talk, but things like fingerings for rasgueados and chords are clearly labelled. You might find the DVD that accompanies the book helpful too if you require visual examples.

Good luck, and, as Miguel says... "welcome to the club!"


Jb

hey... with another "jb" around here, I'm gonna have to change my signature!



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 2:37:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jb

New to the forum, and new to flamenco guitar methods....

So I was wondering if some of the more experienced guitar players might be able to shed a little light on some of my unanswered questions. I ordered the Gerhard DVD set... is this suitable for beginners? I am coming from less than 1 year playing a regular acoustic guitar, but need some foundational instruction to start me of on the right foot for flamenco, as I picked up a couple nasty habits on the acoustic (i.e. only playing with thumb and index fingers, etc...)

Anyways, if this dvd set is too "over the top" for a beginner... then what might you recommend? I am open to suggestions. Also, I see alot of flamenco players using a capo (cejilla) across the first fret, almost as if it were "standard." Is this a necessity? Does it bring out more of a "flamenco" sound? I have a Sanchis 2F on order if it makes a difference.

Thanks in advance for the help

-JB



I'm exactly where you are. Bought an accoustic guitar a year ago but fell in love with flamenco. I also developped a few bad habits from accoustic... but it's never too late to fix things up, especially when you begin.

I had ordered Graf-Martinez methods on Amazon but they screwed up and couldn't find it, so I ordered on flamencon last week. Hopefully, I should recieve the whole package (books, CDs and DVD for both volumes) this week. I've been told it's one of the best method for beginners so I'll try it out.



jb -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 3:05:27)

quote:

I'm exactly where you are. Bought an accoustic guitar a year ago but fell in love with flamenco. I also developped a few bad habits from accoustic... but it's never too late to fix things up, especially when you begin.

I had ordered Graf-Martinez methods on Amazon but they screwed up and couldn't find it, so I ordered on flamencon last week. Hopefully, I should recieve the whole package (books, CDs and DVD for both volumes) this week. I've been told it's one of the best method for beginners so I'll try it out.


Well, I actually ordered mine off of Ebay... it was the Volume 1 CD/DVD/book set for 55.00 including shipping. Seems to be pretty popular, plus ive heard good things about it too. Hopefully, the transition from acoustic to flamenco will be smooth.



Doitsujin -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 10:50:54)

quote:

I ordered the Gerhard DVD set... is this suitable for beginners?


Gerhard DVD? I thought the gerardo nunez DVD... Hmm I already wrote a comment when I thought you ordered Gerardo nunez...I wont change it, coz it costed some time to write it and I dont wanna waste it... Here it is:

Well,... Half of the book are technic exercises.The compositions are for advanced players. But I think as he presents the exercises, its more suitable for not total beginners. Beginners should not only learn technic. They should learn something about the palos at first. I would take merengue de cordoba. Hes a bad player, but he shows the basic stuff as they are without klimbim. Graf Martinez is a bad player, too. But I think the compas examples for bulerias are helpfull. I wouldnt take Juan Martin, coz he doesnt show much technics. But his books show you the traditional elemantes of many palos. I saw a couple of other beginners methods, but they werent better I think.
In general its the very best way to take some lessons from a teacher. But watch up! Dont take a classical guitarrist whose hobby is trying a bit flamenco.. Please look for a guitarrist who does mainly flamenco and not classic or country.
Good luck!



Gecko -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 10:54:09)

I began flamenco guitar studies about a year ago, coming from a classical background which I feel helped me a lot at the beginning. Given your background here is how I would approach it.

Find a teacher. If that is not possible, which it likely isn't then I would:

1. Get Christopher Parkening's Guitar Method Vol I. This is mostly classical technique, however most, if not all, are used in flamenco. It will fill in a lot of gaps in the fundamentals of nylon string playing that you are not going to find in Gerhard's books, though they are very good. Moreover, Parkening will get you started reading standard notation, if you don't already and perhaps more importantly get you familiar with common articulations and rhythm/time and key signature structure. Is reading standard notation necessary? Probably not, but it is very, very helpful. On the other hand understanding articulations and commonly used symbology is going to be necessary. If for no other reason, I would get Parkening for a reference book, but IMO it will ease your introduction to nylon string and flamenco considerably.

2. Get Gerhard's Flamenco Guitar Method Vol 1, you probably won't be ready for Vol 2 for quite a while. This is principally an introduction to flamenco methods and techniques. IMO is does assume you know some fundamental nylon string and/or classical methods and techniques such as rest and free strokes, proper left and right-hand fingerings, slurs and ties, barres, unisons and playing in more than one voice, etc, etc.

3. Get Juan Martin's Solos Flamenco Vol 1. This is principally a music book with a thorough introduction to the most common of the palos (flamenco forms). It is graded 0-5 so it will provide you with some easy flamenco music to keep your interest piqued.

The above 3 books should provide you with enough material for a couple of years worth of study.

Yes, a capo will eventually be necessary for two reasons. First it will ease some of the left-hand stretches you will eventually have to make and secondly, it is traditional to play some of the palos "capo'ed" up. This stems, I believe, from playing for a Cantaor(a) (flamenco singers) who may wish to sing the piece in a different key. Don't skimp on the Capo, get a good one as you don't want to scar-up the neck on the Sanchis and be aware that the capo for a nylon string is different from a steel string capo!!!!

Your Sanchis is going to be a great mid-level guitar!!!!! Tom at LaFalseta can probably get you most of the above books as well.

One final piece of advice and again this is just my opinion. Your are going to start to hear a lot about compas which is basically an accent structure that overlies the time signature and will vary by palos. Forget about it for 6 months or so!! However, it will eventually become important if your going to play puro-flamenco and/or if you will be accompanying a cantaor(a) or bailaor(a)'s, dancers.

Here are some sites you will find useful:

Glossary 1

Glossary 2

Sal's Site

Comaps Intro

List/description of Palos w/MP3

Welcome and good luck. If you're like me you're going to find this journey into flamenco, though frustrating at the beginning, well worth taking.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 12:11:56)

quote:

One final piece of advice and again this is just my opinion. Your are going to start to hear a lot about compas which is basically an accent structure that overlyies the time signature and will vary by palos. Forget about it for 6 months or so!! However, it will eventually become important if your going to play puro-flamenco and/or if you will be accompaning a cantaor(a) or bailaor(a)'s, dancers.



Compas isn't covered as fully as I would like in the Graf martinez vol. 1 book. I'm told the best way to learn compas is to actually play things in compas. But I found these CDs help a bit:

http://www.elflamencovive.es/musicatodoficha.asp?refe=14389

http://www.elflamencovive.es/musicatodoficha.asp?refe=10223

They are CDs of pure compas/palmas with no guitars playing.

But as Gecko says, you may want to start off with the basic techniques first.


James



Jon Boyes -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 12:34:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gecko
1. Get Christopher Parkening's Guitar Method Vol I. This is mostly classical technique, however most, if not all, are used in flamenco. It will fill in a lot of gaps in the fundamentals of nylon string playing that you are not going to find in Gerhard's books, though they are very good. Moreover, Parkening will get you started reading standard notation,

(snip)

Your are going to start to hear a lot about compas which is basically an accent structure that overlies the time signature and will vary by palos. Forget about it for 6 months or so!! However, it will eventually become important if your going to play puro-flamenco and/or if you will be accompanying a cantaor(a) or bailaor(a)'s, dancers.


I disagree with most of the above:
-A classical guitar method is sending a beginner in the wrong direction and they will be wasting time on irrelevant things whilst also learning technique they will have to unlearn later.

-learning to read standard notation is probably the least important thing a beginner needs to worry about. Flamenco is learned and taught by listening/watching and copying, not by reading from scores. I agree that learning sn is broadly a useful skill for anyone who plays an instrument but there are just SO many more important things to get your head round in flamenco...

-The stuff about compas is misleading. Its not just an accent structure eg you could play bulerias and have any number of different ways of accenting the compas. Put it another way, you could play accents in the right places and still be out of compas.

More importantly, your implication is that compas only matters for 'flamenco puro' or if you are accompanying. That's simply not true. No compas = no flamenco. There is no such thing as flamenco where compas is an optional extra.

Good methods (eg Graf martinez or Juans El Arte book) will teach basic technique AND give you some basic flamenco music in compas to practice the techniques.



Gecko -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 12:39:19)

I hear he goes into Compas in much more depth in Vol 2. However, I'm not there yet. As it stands now after trying to "throw-in" some compas for the past 3 months, I'm beginning to get a feel for a basic 12 count in the Soleas. But only if I note the accents in the sheet music. Can't seems to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time, let alone count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 while playing. Oh well, someday, maybe! [;)]



Gecko -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 12:52:35)

Jon:

My comments were made with the assumption that, like me, JB, does not have access to a flamenco teacher and resides where there is no flamenco community so he/she can watch or hear people playing flamenco and must learn from books and DVD/CD which, undoubtedly are helpful, but only up to a certain point.

As for me as a relative beginner, I would have been completely lost at first without having some classical training and no access to a flamenco guitar teacher.

Your point on compas and puro-flamenco is, as you know, arguably well taken, though I believe it is useless for a beginner such as JB to become embroiled in compas at first. I did and it set me back 3 months or more.

For relatively experienced players, like yourself, I think it is easy to overlook all the frustrations a beginner will have, especially one without access to a teacher or other more experienced players.

Of course JB will be the best judge of which direction he chooses to proceed.



duende -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 13:06:00)

i think i´ve learn quite a bit without a teacher.
Also the times i´ve taken lessons it was more like hanging out and play for dancers at a high level. So i never realy got technical advice outside this foro.

come to think of it..the best advice i got as a beginer was -Don´t play so hard.
and im sure thats a usual mistake. listen to pdls early stuff. sometimes you think the strings will break, but in realy life they don´t play so hard as it sounds.

play realxed and not to hard. playing hard before you got and technique will only lock your muscles up, and you might hurt yourself



Jon Boyes -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 13:12:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gecko
Jon:
My comments were made with the assumption that, like me, JB, does not have access to a flamenco teacher


I accept that, and its great that you want to help, but any advice here is up to peer review - thats the way these forums work and its up to the poster what they take away from it all in the end.

I disagreed with your advice - some of which I thought would not help and some of which was just incorrect - if anyone disagrees with me they will post here too.

It takes time to fully appreciate compas but you can open up GM's book and right from the beginning you will be playing a simple strumming pattern with your index finger por Tangos IN COMPAS. I think this is helpful, even if the learner doesn't even know what compas is. More helpful, IMO, than learning a Sor study.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 18 2006 13:36:43)

[Deleted by Admins]



Gecko -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 13:39:25)

Jon:

I certainly had no intention of suggesting or, even implying, which I don't think I did, that leaning Sor, Carulli or even Tarrega, for that matter, was necessary, only that there are some techniques and methods in classical music that I found extremely helpful and an understanding of them greatly facilitated my learning experience.

Normally I would concede to a player with vastly more experience than I, like yourself. However, here let's just say we agree to disagree on the best way a beginner like JB who may or may not have access to a variety of different learning resources, should proceed.

One thing for sure is that if JB gets stuck he can always come here for help and opinions like yours and mine from two different perspectives. I would not have made the modest gains I have made this past year without your help and many others here like you. It has been greatly appreciated.

Regards!!



JBASHORUN -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 14:01:56)

Before you even think about compas, you should get the hang of rasgueados and some basic chord fingerings. There's no point confusing yourself with too many issues at once.

But Compas is an essential part of Flamenco, so if you're serious, you'd better learn it eventually, and the GM books teach you this in a practical way from the very first solea. Like I said, its sometimes easier to do something rather than think about how its done.

My only comment would be that I know how to play Soleas and Tangos, but don't know exactly what makes them Soleas or Tangos. And eventually you will need to know exactly what makes what palo. Which is why additional compas material is sometimes helpful. But I also heard the GM vol 2 book covers compas in more detail.


James



XXX -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 14:26:37)

You should start clapping/tapping/feeling compas as early as you can. Its the foundation of EVERYTHING in flamenco. Rasgueo, picado, apagado, pulgar, golpe, ... its all supposed to express compas IMO. That does not mean, that you should seperate the techniques (means learning it not within a piece) and learn them slowly.

Get yourself some loops (search the foro for it) and hear them 1 hour a day. Without a break!
It really takes dammm long until you start really feeling it; it took me at least 1 year with the bulerias compas! So please do me and you a favor and start on compas. Paralel you can work on technique.


If you have the opportunity, take a teacher!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 18 2006 14:29:05)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 18 2008 6:20:28



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 14:33:36)

compas first, then pulgar, then chords, then rasgueado, then arpeggio, then picado, then tremolo. Ear training at ever step of the way. In order of importance and suggested order of learning. I suggest Juan Martin's solo DVD, because it starts REALLY slow, and you can use it as ear training exercise (trying to learn it by ear and not looking at the tab).

This is nonsense to ignore compas... Start from the ground up, not by getting tabs of Paco compositions and fumble through them.

If you do it in the order I suggest, you will become a solid player.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 15:47:47)

quote:

compas first, then pulgar, then chords, then rasgueado, then arpeggio, then picado, then tremolo. Ear training at ever step of the way. In order of importance and suggested order of learning.


In that case, JB will not be needing his guitar in the near future, and neither will I. Deniz says it took him at least a year just to get the hang of Bulerias compas... so Deniz didn't practice any other techniques before that year was up? You could sit at home and practise palmas until you've mastered every palo, and not practise any other techniques in the mean time. Compas is essential, but if I didn't touch my guitar until I had mastered it, I'd still be clapping away today with my guitar safely in its case.


Jb



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 15:52:30)

It's not that you have to master compas and be able to do contra palmas to bulerias at 200 bpm before you pick up the guitar, mate. It just means you should at least get the general idea and be able to clap it out before you start doing Paco falsetas.



Doitsujin -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 16:10:05)

I think a beginner have to learn all technics, compas-"feeling", and all the other stuff at the same time. No structured plan. Just play play play. Thats it. Tomatito said that, too.[;)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 16:44:11)

quote:

It just means you should at least get the general idea and be able to clap it out before you start doing Paco falsetas.


Well, it'll be a long time before I can do any Paco falsetas! But I'll give the basic palmas a try before I learn to play a palo in future, and see if that helps.


Jb



Doitsujin -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 17:05:53)

I never practiced palmas. Just play for dance. After some years try to do palmas and you will see that you learned to do it without doing any palmas in past. [;)] I think the palmas thing is more for dancers.. The foot is important. If you learn bulerias compas..at first forget the 2step footwork of paco. Just do straight footpalmas (whats the name of that??).
You learn the compas best, if you follow a dancer or just other players. Yes I think following other players while they play for dance, is the best and fastest way for beginners to get the compas. By the way, there are many palos which have just a 4/4 or 6/8 compas. Maybe a beginner should learn at first some rumbastrumming.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 17:45:43)

quote:

By the way, there are many palos which have just a 4/4 or 6/8 compas. Maybe a beginner should learn at first some rumbastrumming.


Rumbas are simple enough.


Tangos: 4/4.

d d d ddd d
1 & 2 3-& 4&

ta ta ta tatata ta

according to my teacher's transcription, anyway. The rhythm matches the Tangos beat on the Todos Los Compases CD too.

But check the Tangos compas example here:

http://members.aol.com/BuleriaChk/private/compas/compasa3.html#Tangos


And its different.


Its gonna be a long night...


James



XXX -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 18:01:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

so Deniz didn't practice any other techniques before that year was up?



Thats why i said you can train the technique paralel to compas, but seperately. Lets say 5 finger rasg for 30min a day, and nothing else. No full pieces!! First compas! PLus its extreeemly helpful to pick a solea and COUNT. But not starting to play solea until you havent the techniques on IMO


Playing for dancers is luxury and advanced, no?



jb -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 19:06:40)

Thanks for all the insightful suggestions guys... I didn't realize I was going to spark such a debate on what sort of progression a beginner should follow. I live in California, and while I have found a few teachers, they are a bit on the expensive side and funds are limited right now... so dvd's and books will have to suffice for the time being =)

While this thread is still alive though, I would like to hear some suggestions of what I should be listening to, so that I can "train" my ear properly. I plan on practicing 3+ hours per day once my guitar arrives, so hopefully that will help.

-JB



Gecko -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 20:42:35)

JB:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gecko
One final piece of advice and again this is just my opinion. Your are going to start to hear a lot about compas....


See what I mean? [:)] Also, never, never ask about nuevo-flamenco as it will likely spark a even more lively "debate."
[:D]

Obviously the approach to learning flamenco will depend upon your individual perspective and the "baggage" you bring along to it. For me, I wanted a strong foundation in the fundamentals and rightly or wrongly I do not consider compas as a learning fundamental, yet I fully recognize its fundamental importance if accompanying dancers and or singers. I conscientiously chose not to worry about it for the first 9 months or so because it was impeding my learning other things. Instead I concentrated on other techniques. "Other's mileage, including your own may vary."

Your question about what CD's to listen to crops up quite often and a search should reveal numerous threads. But, again you will probably find a variety of opinions.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 21:48:02)

" rightly or wrongly I do not consider compas as a learning fundamental"

ay, ay, ay, all due respect but I hope no one even considers taking this advice! To be honest it is the worst idea I have ever seen on a flamenco forum.

jb, as far as required listening, I think it's a good idea to get some "old school" stuff in it..because the _compas_ is more clear. (that's if you consider it important). Ramon (not Carlos) Montoya, Sabicas, Paco Pena (azahara, fabulous flamenco). If you are interested in doing flamenco to a high level, you should get some Solo Compas CDs. These are basically rhythm tracks to play guitar, sing, or dance to...might start with Tangos and Solea. You can hear standard examples of the form, and you can just put it on and have the rhythm in your ear when you're doing something. Anders, the luthier gave me this idea and it's a great one.

Good luck! This art form is so rewarding and fun at all levels.



jb -> RE: Couple of beginner questions... (Jul. 18 2006 22:25:04)

quote:

you are interested in doing flamenco to a high level, you should get some Solo Compas CDs.


Where might I purchase these?

-JB



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