Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs

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Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs

Set the frets in the other day, and used TiteBond II - not superglue. Went in very nice, and when we pulled the clamps and laid a straightedge on it, it was almost dead flat, with very little leveling needed. I then clipped the frets, flat-filed with a tool that has a wood handle that rides along the top of the frets, and holds a file at 90°, then another that has a bevel to put the 'brake' at the edge. A crowning file is then used with a little metal fretboard protector to take out any scratches and recrown. Slip 600# paper into this, and redo. Puts a matt shine and smooths all the frets.

Onto the bridge. Bob uses a 'pin' method in the pic, where 2 small holes are drilled through the bridge where the bone will go and cover. It keeps the brindge EXACTLY where you put it as you glue and clamp (you can't believe how much something will slip unless you really take care). I chose this method, and the results were a bridge that is dead-on in location. Clamping is kind of a bitch, and take a few tries to get it right. Almost had the first clamp in when glued, and the 'protector' for the contrapuente fell off the soundboard! Had to hurry to get it and everything back in, as the glue was on....

You can see the pegs in. This is Chuck Herrin's 'peghed' concept. I saw that Anders went ahead and tried them. Hmmmm. I would have to say that Chuck is going to find sales lagging simply because he chose to manufacturer something without taking into account available tools!!! Bob REALLY grumbles about this, and talked with Chuck at length, as he bought like 10 sets. And Bob bought the "suggested" reamer at $120.00, and modified it to get close, but nothing is 'a fit'.... Just a lot of careful work with a rolled piece of 120 grit paper, the reamer, and check and recheck. Not too much, or it will be sloppy. I think I got it pretty tight, as I went slow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 14:27:44

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

A shot of the head and the clamping process for the bridge....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 14:29:23

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

Have to be careful here.....The top is thin, easy to scratch....go slow!

Clamp-pressure was reduced after a few hours, but will stay on all night....

Cheers!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 14:31:43

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

It looks very nice, but why did you install peg-heads? A good mechanic would look much better and is more comfortable to use.. Did you intall the peg heads coz its was easyer than mechanics?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 15:54:53

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

Hi Doitsujin,

I like pegs, and I don't like machines, mainly because they cut out so much of the headplate wood.

Just thought I would try the best of both worlds (my world, at least!). Bob has them on a guitar or two he's built, and they are great; lightweight, and work perfect - just a bit more difficult to install vs. standard ebony pegs.

Bob also converted a new Lester DeVoe for a guy here that had a blanca with pegs, and the guy was really pleased with the results. Pegs - but easy to tune.

Here's a pic. On the left are the pegheds. The threads look 'odd', but since it's all inside, all you see is the top, and mine have real ebony wood buttons on the bottom. On the left are a rosewood and an ebony peg. You have to get pretty close to see it's not real, especially if you just hit the shine off the pegheds. Have to be careful, the coating is thin. I may even drill the top and put some bone dots in like another ebony set I have..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 16:13:30

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

Yes thats right..with machines there is less wood to design on the head. It depends on personal taste. I think machines are looking cool. Ok, I can see them everywhere, but I like it.

I saw in past that somebody made a new invention. Pegheads looking, but in the pegheads are mechanics. So they are as easy and fast to use as the normal machines but it looks 100% like pure pegheads... Maybe its an interesting invention for people who like the pegheadlook but wanna tune very fast.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 16:20:03

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

I'm a peg-man, myself. Don't like the machines, as I think the traditional look of the flamenco is very cool...

, and I see machines on everything.

The problem is with pegs, many builders don't take the time to fit them properly. Done right, they're pretty smooth, BUT still more work than tuners. I just like how clean and simple the pegs look in my guitar(s), and the grain-pattern on my headstock was unique, so I didn't want to cut that all away!

Some guy makes these 'Carlos mechanical pegs' that I saw, but they were a silver or pewter color, with a large, pewter-colored ring around the peg. They've now made them ebony-looking, but they appear smaller than standard pegs, as you are required (in a refit) to plug the existing hole (ugly), re-drill, and add the peg. Looks like they'd be okay on a new install, but at €150 plus shipping, that's over $200 US for me!

http://www.american-guitar-center.com/seiten/NEW-total.html

With the pegheds system, as on that Lester Devoe Bob refit, all he did was enlarge the hole - not plug it!

As you said, it's all personal choice. Someone asked in an earlier post if I was going to "ruin it with machines", or something like that, soooooooo......

So we'll see! Ive used them a bit on Bob's guitars when I play, and I do like them. I see that Anders tried them (pegheds, like mine), but I don't know if he ever posted his thoughts. He may have found that they are a bit of a pain to install, as it seems to be a completely odd size to the tools available.

Anders? Thoughts on the pegheds?

PS...LOVE this forum. Lots of koool stuff, feedback, ideas, etc... Great place!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 17:34:34

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

I have an Anders peghead and he talked me into them. They are great - faster to tune than machines, stay in tune pretty well, look great and we like to think they sound better.

Anders took a lot of care fitting each hole to the peg - they are matched and should not be swapped around.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 18:00:02

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

So they are as easy and fast to use as the normal machines but it looks 100% like pure pegheads... Maybe its an interesting invention for people who like the pegheadlook but wanna tune very fast.

Pegs tune much faster than machine heads - it's a 1:1 ratio. Machines are 14:1 or 15:1 I think? Machine heads are more precise i.e. easier to tune as the tuning increments are much smaller for the same effort.

I don't have an issue with my pegs but some do. I like both, but pegs give a cleaner line for me, with more headstock veneer on show.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 18:05:33

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

Exactly... There are 2 that are threaded opposite for high and low E, so that as you tighten each string, you tighten into the thread pattern, so they cannot 'work their way out'.

Bob adds a touch of glue to the threads (the 'threads' are a bit of a joke). He said it's a bit more work if you ever have to remove them, but they are in and set.

I think it's pretty slick. I've seen too many guitars (and cried) - like a 60's Ramirez FL1 - that have been 'converted' to machines... Seems a loss. At least with this system, you retain the builder's thoughts and work.

Thanks for the review.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 18:14:04

ykabban

Posts: 251
Joined: Jan. 11 2006

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

Lookin' great Ramon. The only thing I dislike about those pegs is that protrude just a hair too much for my taste; just a personal thing.
A friend of mine broke a rosewood peg on his Huipe. He asked me to replace all of them because he knows how anal I am. I got those ebony pegs from LMI and refit them. They are the best fitting and best working pegs I've ever touched, and it made me wonder why more luthiers don't take the time

.
If it's possible to drill the top of those pegs, ~5mm bone dots would look delicious. Also a slight bevel on the perimeter of your headstock would give a more refined look, again a personal thing. I noticed you went with a cleaner looking tie-block, good choice! keep up the excellent work.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 18:22:29

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Escribano)

I don't really have any problem with pegheads myself..
In fact I owned a Ramiez peghead for a number of years and always found it easy to tune up.
The bit that bugged me though, is that sometimes you'd put the guitar down casually and in doing so hit the headstock against something....then you'd hear a "bong" as a string would slip to ultra-slack.
Tuning up again wasn't too much of a problem after a couple of minutes, although personally I could really do without that factor when dealing with the nerves of a formal public performance myself..
I say formal, because in a genuine juerga or peña situation, nobody would care less and would just give a good break to charge another caña and have a good discussion about the rights and wrongs of the world.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 20:06:42

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ron.M)

Looks great Ramon. I prefer to finish the guitar first then install the bridge finished separately afterwards.

I'm glad you went with pegs. That's such a nice head overlay that you would have lost a lot of that unique figure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2006 22:15:19

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

Just got in from working on my baby.... Welllllll....It's basically all done!!!!!! Wooo Hooo!

Shaped out the neck today, and (ykabban), I beveled and shaped the finished edges on the head. In the pics above, it's not done - as it was the last thing I did today, but the bevels are mild.

I also took out that wood marquetry on the bridge and refit a piece of macassar...simple and clean.

So tomorrow, I'll finish sand it, and start to put some more coats of shellac onto the soundboard.

I'm going to post a new link, too, on finishes for this, as I want to have as many people comment who might not otherwise look at this continuing link. Maybe someone will have a little input that differs, or some other good thoughts....

Thanks for all the feedback! I was a bit undecided about the pegheds, as someone once said; "If you're using pegs, just use 'real' pegs", but it's not like my guitar IS a Reyes!

Some pics tomorrow

Hey...Anyone know who has 5mm bone dots? LMII doesn't have them (at least that I could find...)

Thanks all!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 2:01:48

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

In fact I owned a Ramiez peghead for a number of years

Ron.

Was it from 1960?!? I found a Ramirez in Gothenburg, 1960 it was AND a peghead.
Realy light and a good flamenco sound.
Where did your guitar go?

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 5:19:41

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

5mm bone dots

What for? please tell me your not thinking of using fret markers?

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 6:47:53

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

if you use fret markers it will be more difficult to use a capo since the fretboard will "look" diffrent deppending on where you put the capo.

NOT dots i hope

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 6:54:44

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

What for? please tell me your not thinking of using fret markers?

I think he wanted them for the pegs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 7:48:45

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to duende)

No Henrik...mine was 1971...I sold it a few years back.
It was an incredibly light guitar although Jim Opfer's Ramirez Blanca is the lightest guitar I've ever held...like made out of eggshell.
Totally amazing!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 10:22:29

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ron.M)

the 1960s ramirez was also unbelivebly light, great feel

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 10:54:51

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

No - those are for the peg tops! But I already installed abalone porpoises on the 3/5/7/9 and 12th

Just want to see if I can lightly drill those pegtops and add a small bone dot. ...Guess they'd be like 1-2mm??

You guys think I would come all this way and put FRET MARKERS!!??

Seriously....can't find them (bone dots). Anyone know where?

Tomas - how's your Reye(s?) coming??? Is it just the one Negra, or a blanca, too???

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 15:15:08

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

You guys think I would come all this way and put FRET MARKERS!!??

Seriously....can't find them (bone dots). Anyone know where?

Tomas - how's your Reye(s?) coming??? Is it just the one Negra, or a blanca, too???

Well some people actually like fret markers. I hate em. Leave them on electric or steel strings!

The negra Reyes is nearing the finishing stages. Don't think I'll be making a blanca Reyes "copy" though. This was kind of a one time deal to see how it came out. I've taken a little from Reyes and Barbero and fused them with my own ideas of what I like.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 15:20:45

ykabban

Posts: 251
Joined: Jan. 11 2006

RE: Flamenco 11. Bridge and Pegs (in reply to Ramón)

You might want to try the white shell dots that LMII carries, if they don't clash. I inlayed their 5mm abalone dots in the cejillas I make and they are perfectly round. I suggest you get a high quality brad point bit if you don't already have one. I got a nice bit from LMII, and it was worth it; the fit of the dot is so flush that the margins on the perimeter are imperceptible, even with a magnifying glass.

That being said, if those peg tops are anything but real ebony, I would forget about any inlay.

I'm impressed that you are finishing the guitar yourself

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2006 15:52:12