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Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc.
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Ex
Posts: 15
Joined: May 23 2006
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 Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody...
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Hello Flamenco Aficionados,
I have problems composing fast rhythmical melody lines like they are common in Flamenco music. In Flamenco they have such complex solo lines, which sound in a way jazzy and spanish. I think in Flamenco-Jazz they mostly use harmonic minor, phrygian and major scales, is this correct?
Only by using this scales it doesn't really sound like Flamenco, but more like Classical music. Because in Classical music the harmonic minor scale is also very common.
What is the key factor that makes a melody line sound like for example the solo lines of Paco De Lucia, Tomatito or Vicente Amigo ? Of course they have an own style, thats not what I am looking for, I don't want to cover their styles!!! I just want to make my solo/lead lines sound like flamenco and not like classical, jazz, pop, blues or whatever.
The flamenco sound is more groovy, more rhythmical than other forms of music I think. It is possible for me to play chord pattern in a flamenco rhythm style, but the lead lines I play still sound like flamenco pop, you know like the melody lines of the guitarist of Enrique Iglesias. It just sounds ... like flamenco pop melodies. Somehow the lead lines I play are very fast sometimes, like the solos of Paco De Lucia, Vicente Amigo etc., but more simple in structure. You know what I mean ? What is the reason for that ?
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 23 2006 7:47:04
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Ex
Posts: 15
Joined: May 23 2006
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RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical me... (in reply to Ex)
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You are right !!!
I am also not a traditional flamenco musician, I just have the feeling for this music, if I listen to flamenco guitar music it just moves me, it gives me a special mood/feeling, which I don't get with other musical styles. That's why I play nylon-string guitar. But I don't play it like the flamenco players do, with the fingers. I play with a pick, like John McLaughlin, who also plays often nylon-string guitars with a pick. This allows me also to play very fast like McLaughlin or Paco De Lucia.
Now, what really interests me is, if anyone already analyzed Paco's usage of scales and chords. If I listen to Paco De Lucia's guitar playing I am confronted with an uncommon stlye, for example I never heard Paco play any usual major or minor scales. For me he seems to use very small intervals in his melodies/solos. But because I am not able to hear exactly what he plays, when he plays 1/32 notes at 130 bpm (because it is to fast for analyzing), I cannot analyze his use of scales. So maybe one of you guys knows what scales Paco uses, which give this special flamenco/jazzy sound. Because I tried many scales, like all the modes, diminished, phrygian, harmonic and melodic minor.
But only the harmonic minor and phrygian for me seem to fit mostly to Paco's sound. But there are still other intervals in his playing.
Maybe some of you know the Albums of the Guitar Trio Al Di Meola, John Mc Laughlin and Paco de Lucia.
I love the music of "Passion,Grace & Fire" and "The Guitar Trio" as well as "Friday Night in San Francisco".
But I tried for hours and nights to copy their solos. It is possible to copy the slow parts where they only play 1/16 notes at 130bpm. But it is not possible to copy the 1/32 stuff.
With the parts I copied I found out nothing special, but that they mainly use the harmonic minor scale, phrygian, gypsy scale and w-h-scale sometimes. As well as normal aeolian and modes.
But I also couldn't figure out what chords they play. Do they play a lot of altered chords ? Or just simple diatonic extensions ? They somehow get this intellectual and ultra complex sounding flamenco-jazz mix sound. But I really can't find out what makes the guitar playing sound like this. Maybe they just play the same scales and lines, like a rock, blues, or any other musician, but they have different living-experiences. Maybe its just that what makes it sound like that.
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Date May 23 2006 11:07:26
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical me... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
In short, cante is flamenco, and don't expect to sound flamenco if you don't know it.
Well...I never thought I'd hear you say that Mike! 
The long and short of it all IMO is that everybody wants Flamenco to be they way they want it to be, whereas Flamenco is what it is, and always will be...
The more you get into it, the more you realize that this is so.
As Todd said, you can play 4 notes, in a Rock way, a Jazz way, a Blues way and a Flamenco way.
Flamenco music to me is all about rhythmic phrasing, emphasis on off beats and to a lesser extent, musical ideas...although when they happen, they are utterly fantastic.
Like a sparkling jewel.
Take the falseta apart and write it down and play it note for note and the impact is like 10% of the original.
This is why Flamenco guitar cannot be rationalised into a single formula, that if you get this right and that right, then it's suddenly all gonna work.
Tone, attack, phrasing etc of these 4 notes will keep you occupied for years IMO..
cheers
Ron
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Date May 23 2006 20:27:50
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Ricardo
Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical me... (in reply to Ex)
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quote:
They somehow get this intellectual and ultra complex sounding flamenco-jazz mix sound. But I really can't find out what makes the guitar playing sound like this.
The simple answer is rhythm (along with what Ron said). The phrasing, the way the notes are timed and attacked, emphasized. In terms of the trio and even other flamenco players, they often play similar notes scales, chords, etc, but the way they play rhythmically, is the main difference in style.
Unfortunately, your attitude that you want to achieve a certain sound, but not cop or "cover" the exact style of Paco or whoever, is not helpful. You are not going to get it unless you learn the notes and rhythms EXACT down to fine detail of attack. That is actually a good way to learn music in general. YOU are an individual and can not escape that. Nothing wrong with studying the playing of others in fine detail, you will still have YOUR own identity. But to think it is just ONE simple factor, a key to making the sound you want, well, you are not going to find it. I think of rhythm as a not so simple factor, though I do think it is what YOU are looking for.
I recommend for you Al Dimeola's instructional video, to get some base for picking those lines, rhythms, scales chords, etc used frequently by the trio. There is a transcription book of San francisco. McLaughlin has an excellent DVD tutorial for learning how to play changes, using meldic minor modes and such. You are not going to achieve Paco's sound with pick unless you try out Todd's hybrid picking technique, but you can still learn his solo's note for note with patience. All these things will help you.
Cante? Would be great if you became a big aficionado, but for what you are looking for, I think that aquiring a taste for it is not as important as focusing on rhythm. Just like the Guitar Trio can be an aquired taste, one I happen to like. 
Ricardo
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Date May 23 2006 20:51:44
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cneberg
Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
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RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical me... (in reply to Ex)
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"Ex", don't think so much, enjoy the music. You'll never play exactly like Paco, Sanlucar,..... You don't have same hands, nails or brains as they do, which is good, the World is much more interesting this way.
People who try to play everything exactly like the original, tend to bore me. Of course it's a chalenge, but to jerk off with one tune for a year or more is just..... I don't know.... academic.
I agree with some of the guitarists here, who are by the way much more techically developed, that you have to listen a lot, but really listen and try to feel the pure flamenco cante. Otherwise you'll end up sounding like Liebert, which is not bad at all, but it's definitely not flamenco.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 23 2006 22:42:06
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