Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (Full Version)

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Ex -> Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 7:47:04)

Hello Flamenco Aficionados,

I have problems composing fast rhythmical melody lines like they are common in Flamenco music. In Flamenco they have such complex solo lines, which sound in a way jazzy and spanish. I think in Flamenco-Jazz they mostly use harmonic minor, phrygian and major scales, is this correct?
Only by using this scales it doesn't really sound like Flamenco, but more like Classical music. Because in Classical music the harmonic minor scale is also very common.
What is the key factor that makes a melody line sound like for example the solo lines of Paco De Lucia, Tomatito or Vicente Amigo ? Of course they have an own style, thats not what I am looking for, I don't want to cover their styles!!! I just want to make my solo/lead lines sound like flamenco and not like classical, jazz, pop, blues or whatever.
The flamenco sound is more groovy, more rhythmical than other forms of music I think. It is possible for me to play chord pattern in a flamenco rhythm style, but the lead lines I play still sound like flamenco pop, you know like the melody lines of the guitarist of Enrique Iglesias. It just sounds ... like flamenco pop melodies. Somehow the lead lines I play are very fast sometimes, like the solos of Paco De Lucia, Vicente Amigo etc., but more simple in structure. You know what I mean ? What is the reason for that ?



ToddK -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 8:59:52)

I think, a jazz guitarist and a flamenco guitarist could play
the same exact line, and the jazz guitarist would make
it sound jazzy, and the flamenco guitarist would make it sound flamenco.

Flamenco sound is a big part i think. Flamenco ornamentation too.
Like those slurs Vicente uses. Or the super staccato Paco uses.
The sound of the thumb nail clicking.

Listen to alot more flamenco, and try some older stuff, with singing.
You really gotta get into the culture a bit, and get the whole picture.
Then you'll get the vibe. And for it to sound flamenco, ya gotta understand
the flamenco vibe. You have to have a particular attitude.
Its expressed best in the cante. (singing) Take the spirit of the cante,
and let it come through the guitar.
TK



Ex -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 11:07:26)

You are right !!!
I am also not a traditional flamenco musician, I just have the feeling for this music, if I listen to flamenco guitar music it just moves me, it gives me a special mood/feeling, which I don't get with other musical styles. That's why I play nylon-string guitar. But I don't play it like the flamenco players do, with the fingers. I play with a pick, like John McLaughlin, who also plays often nylon-string guitars with a pick. This allows me also to play very fast like McLaughlin or Paco De Lucia.

Now, what really interests me is, if anyone already analyzed Paco's usage of scales and chords. If I listen to Paco De Lucia's guitar playing I am confronted with an uncommon stlye, for example I never heard Paco play any usual major or minor scales. For me he seems to use very small intervals in his melodies/solos. But because I am not able to hear exactly what he plays, when he plays 1/32 notes at 130 bpm (because it is to fast for analyzing), I cannot analyze his use of scales. So maybe one of you guys knows what scales Paco uses, which give this special flamenco/jazzy sound. Because I tried many scales, like all the modes, diminished, phrygian, harmonic and melodic minor.
But only the harmonic minor and phrygian for me seem to fit mostly to Paco's sound. But there are still other intervals in his playing.

Maybe some of you know the Albums of the Guitar Trio Al Di Meola, John Mc Laughlin and Paco de Lucia.
I love the music of "Passion,Grace & Fire" and "The Guitar Trio" as well as "Friday Night in San Francisco".
But I tried for hours and nights to copy their solos. It is possible to copy the slow parts where they only play 1/16 notes at 130bpm. But it is not possible to copy the 1/32 stuff.
With the parts I copied I found out nothing special, but that they mainly use the harmonic minor scale, phrygian, gypsy scale and w-h-scale sometimes. As well as normal aeolian and modes.
But I also couldn't figure out what chords they play. Do they play a lot of altered chords ? Or just simple diatonic extensions ? They somehow get this intellectual and ultra complex sounding flamenco-jazz mix sound. But I really can't find out what makes the guitar playing sound like this. Maybe they just play the same scales and lines, like a rock, blues, or any other musician, but they have different living-experiences. Maybe its just that what makes it sound like that.



XXX -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 13:19:06)

I cant say anything about the trio albums, coz I dont know what they play; its just too fast for me.
But I listened to really many Paco albums, and can say that he uses mostly minor/major and phrygian (E or A). Sometimes gipsy or oriental scale or something that is called "Hicaz" in turkish, dont know what it is in english.

But you are also asking how he play that and well the first answer I would give to this question is with fingers. Its really hard to emulate the finger sound with picks. ToddK does play this way and is able to achieve flamenco sound.

In any case I mean, its damn hard work and I dont know if there is an easy answer for it. I dont know how well you play but the trio stuff is something that I would try to learn at last, because I think you need alot beforehand to be able to play it. And they can only play this virtuoso stuff, because they did alot of other things, and do have this "background". Oh and its not flamenco!



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 14:13:54)

Ex,
the simple answer is that it's cante... cante is the singing and usually thought of as the heart of flamenco. If you listen to the cante, and then listen to the guitar, you will see that the guitar is usually imitating the cante. As to the precise characteristics of cante that make it sound "flamenco", that is a pretty complex subject. If you just got some cante albums and learned how to play the vocal melodies on guitar, you would probably find your way to the answer.

In short, cante is flamenco, and don't expect to sound flamenco if you don't know it.



ToddK -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 16:53:05)

Hmmm, OK, you threw me when you mentioned Vicente and Tomatito.

If you're going for the sound on Friday Night in Sanfrancisco,
well, forget about the flamenco.

They're not playing anything that resembles flamenco to my ears.

Play lots of tritones and fast scale runs, and you're there.[8D]

I guess you can tell, i really hate the Trio.[:D]

TK



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 17:00:58)

Take four notes and put them together in as weird a way as you can think of, then play it as fast as possible. That might help, too, eh?



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 17:55:37)

quote:

I guess you can tell, i really hate the Trio


Me too, and nothing to do with my love of flamenco; it just reeked of West Coast "cool" pomposity. McLaughlin bending the neck of his Ovation (for vibrato) was the limit. The whole thing gave Paco a headache and I am not surprised, even though he still blew the others away.

Sorry, Ex, this is not meant as an unhelpful puro rant but these "jams" had no structure, no rhythm, no soul and no grace. I might as well stick 8 exhaust pipes on my car, when 2 are just right.

This is just not a genre that travels well.



Ron.M -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 20:27:50)

quote:

In short, cante is flamenco, and don't expect to sound flamenco if you don't know it.


Well...I never thought I'd hear you say that Mike! [:D]

The long and short of it all IMO is that everybody wants Flamenco to be they way they want it to be, whereas Flamenco is what it is, and always will be...

The more you get into it, the more you realize that this is so.

As Todd said, you can play 4 notes, in a Rock way, a Jazz way, a Blues way and a Flamenco way.

Flamenco music to me is all about rhythmic phrasing, emphasis on off beats and to a lesser extent, musical ideas...although when they happen, they are utterly fantastic.
Like a sparkling jewel.
Take the falseta apart and write it down and play it note for note and the impact is like 10% of the original.
This is why Flamenco guitar cannot be rationalised into a single formula, that if you get this right and that right, then it's suddenly all gonna work.
Tone, attack, phrasing etc of these 4 notes will keep you occupied for years IMO..[:D]

cheers

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 20:51:44)

quote:

They somehow get this intellectual and ultra complex sounding flamenco-jazz mix sound. But I really can't find out what makes the guitar playing sound like this.


The simple answer is rhythm (along with what Ron said). The phrasing, the way the notes are timed and attacked, emphasized. In terms of the trio and even other flamenco players, they often play similar notes scales, chords, etc, but the way they play rhythmically, is the main difference in style.

Unfortunately, your attitude that you want to achieve a certain sound, but not cop or "cover" the exact style of Paco or whoever, is not helpful. You are not going to get it unless you learn the notes and rhythms EXACT down to fine detail of attack. That is actually a good way to learn music in general. YOU are an individual and can not escape that. Nothing wrong with studying the playing of others in fine detail, you will still have YOUR own identity. But to think it is just ONE simple factor, a key to making the sound you want, well, you are not going to find it. I think of rhythm as a not so simple factor, though I do think it is what YOU are looking for.

I recommend for you Al Dimeola's instructional video, to get some base for picking those lines, rhythms, scales chords, etc used frequently by the trio. There is a transcription book of San francisco. McLaughlin has an excellent DVD tutorial for learning how to play changes, using meldic minor modes and such. You are not going to achieve Paco's sound with pick unless you try out Todd's hybrid picking technique, but you can still learn his solo's note for note with patience. All these things will help you.

Cante? Would be great if you became a big aficionado, but for what you are looking for, I think that aquiring a taste for it is not as important as focusing on rhythm. Just like the Guitar Trio can be an aquired taste, one I happen to like. [;)]

Ricardo



carlos soto -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 22:13:52)

I agree, finding your own sound is a big part of what every great player has as well as having your own way to play the instrument, what flamencos refer to as personality.
You just need 10 seconds to know when someone as good as paco, gerardo or vicente is playing the guitar because they found what they like and they have their own "slangs" and small details that make them be who they are, and this is not only in flamenco, in every style you'll find people with such great personal expression that you'll be able to recognize them from the rest.



cneberg -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 23 2006 22:42:06)

"Ex", don't think so much, enjoy the music. You'll never play exactly like Paco, Sanlucar,..... You don't have same hands, nails or brains as they do, which is good, the World is much more interesting this way.

People who try to play everything exactly like the original, tend to bore me. Of course it's a chalenge, but to jerk off with one tune for a year or more is just..... I don't know.... academic.

I agree with some of the guitarists here, who are by the way much more techically developed, that you have to listen a lot, but really listen and try to feel the pure flamenco cante. Otherwise you'll end up sounding like Liebert, which is not bad at all, but it's definitely not flamenco.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Flamenco melody vs. Classical melody etc. (May 30 2006 22:19:07)

quote:

There is a transcription book of [Friday Night in] San francisco.


Yeah, I bought that book. Its difficult enough to play what is actually there, well virtually impossible for most people. And its made worse by the fact that there's no guitar tablature, just musical notes! I ended up selling it on in the end!

But if its the "Guitar Trio" sound you crave, then immitation can be a good learning tool. Spend some time getting as close to it as possible, then use what you've learnt in your own way. I wish I had the time and patience to do this.

Guitar Trio stuff isn't really "Flamenco"- more like jazz. but there's nothing wrong with it IMO.


Jb



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