Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva, Tom Blackshear and Sean O'Brien who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 16022
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Toccata and recitative (in reply to devilhand)
Interesting observations, however there is nuance.
Recitative: No, it is not like cante for these reasons. 1. It is not poetry, it is text that is barely melodic designed to connect the actual real poetic songs to form an actual story. So there is not syllabic structure nor rhyme scheme in the letras. 2. Exposition to tell a story seems related but the idea with recitative is that the text all relates to the SAME STORY. Cante letras are self contained stories in only a few lines of verse. No letra is related to any other, even in one palo. If it is the rare case that two poems seem to relate to each other, it might be better viewed as ONE letra all together. There is imposition or interpretation of "songs" called "cuple", but to cantores this is understood as not traditional cante, but rather they use the compas of the song form to interpret special songs from outside the genre (like Mexican rancheros or Portuguese fado, etc.). And of course there are special cases such as Garcia Lorca poetry that has been adapted to cante. But again, "poetry" is not recitative.
Toccata: Andalusian cadence by definition has parallel 5ths and octaves. You are hearing the bass line only. D-C-Bb-A. The actual chords are Bb/D, Am/C, Gm/Bb, and A final. It has the same character but technically he is avoiding parallel 5ths and octaves with those inversions. Again, this situation goes back to the voice leading rules of the renaissance hanging on through the baroque and classical period.
Claude Worms makes the opposite suggestion, i.e. that flamenco letras are a bit like arias, i.e. a singer uses extravagant vocal technique to express the emotion that the character is feeling at that moment. His argument for the relevance of this is that mid-19th century variety shows would include flamenco acts and, also, opera singers doing popular arias. Naturally, the flamencos, seeing how well-paid and popular the aria singers were, did what all musicians do and stole/copied/imitated/adapted what they could.
Worms isn’t a fool and knows that there is no simple origin story for flamenco. This is just one part of a bigger story he wants to tell about flamenco developing through a back-and-forth between elite music and low-rent music.
Recitative: No, it is not like cante for these reasons. 1. It is not poetry, it is text that is barely melodic designed to connect the actual real poetic songs to form an actual story. So there is not syllabic structure nor rhyme scheme in the letras.
Traditionally flamenco cante is raw. I always thought the poetization of flamenco cante started in the 19th century.
Claude Worms makes the opposite suggestion, i.e. that flamenco letras are a bit like arias, i.e. a singer uses extravagant vocal technique to express the emotion that the character is feeling at that moment. His argument for the relevance of this is that mid-19th century variety shows would include flamenco acts and, also, opera singers doing popular arias. Naturally, the flamencos, seeing how well-paid and popular the aria singers were, did what all musicians do and stole/copied/imitated/adapted what they could.
Ok, well some more nuance here. “Opposite suggestion” to my comment or devilhand’s? The reason is that “aria” in general are the SONGS I was talking about that are connected by the recitatives. These are verse type songs rather than prose, (prose which is what Devilhand was suggesting was “like cante and its accompaniment”, and I took issue with this). I would agree that cante being song FORMS, are closer in spirit to the arias compared to the recitatives. However, again, the arias will be the music telling the story and are therefore connected via the libretto or overarching text of the musical theatre piece or opera. We would have to say that arias are again different than cantes in this regard, however, there are concert arias and insertion arias which function as stand alone songs or pieces that can be performed to show off the singer’s abilities, and might not have anything to do with the full theatre or opera show, but function to highlight a famous vocal actor of one of the characters.
If Worms wanted to say the operatic Zarzuelas were influential on cantaores in the mid to late 19th century, I would say ok, but not because they “stole/copied/imitated/adapted” arias, rather, the zarzuelas were likely inspired by/borrowing from the popular flamenco culture and other folk song and dance that might have been from various regions, such as fandangos, seguidilla from La Mancha, jota from the north etc. C. Oudrid as published for guitar by Damas was an interesting example where I am seeing cante mineros creeping in to the Rondeña of the theatre piece, or orchestral work, whatever it was (academic music as Castro calls it). So perhaps an idea to feature a cantaor via some specific zarzuela or whatever that was famous, I could see that….but a big push back I must give is that the cante is based on SONG FORMS that seem to be (and it is argued about now and vague to most scholars) completely set already (I am basing this on Ocon, Estebañez Calderon, etc.). Song forms are NOT STAND ALONE SONGS, they incorporate a mixture of unrelated lyric poems, which is quite different than even stand alone arias or zarzuelas numbers, etc. “Madrigal” as a genre is close to a formal structure, but a “Romanesca” is much closer to the concept of a palo via its specific elements.
Sure there are SOME cantes that have a limited lyric set and perhaps even could be traced to such an origin (have not yet seen that specifically done with an aria, and Worms or anybody else claiming this needs to show the correlation), but the MAIN palos we consider cante today (Solea, siguiriyas, martinetes, Fandango, malaguena, cante mineros etc.) are very different than that. Only we have vocal delivery in some cases “extravagant vocal technique” is not a good way to put it, but it superficially has commonality with opera and dramatic theatre singing (I give him that while admitting there is nuance in technique to be hashed out, like Planeta and Filo arguing in real time in 1838 before a juerga). Same deal with Pakistani Sufi, Arabic, Greek/Turkish etc., singing.
quote:
Worms isn’t a fool and knows that there is no simple origin story for flamenco. This is just one part of a bigger story he wants to tell about flamenco developing through a back-and-forth between elite music and low-rent music.
I am not calling anyone “a fool”, however I wonder if he sings seriously or at all. It is a superficial observation, at least the way you put it earlier about technique. While I admit the back and forth between what flamencologists call “academic” music, and our flamenco traditional palos was certainly there to be seen in the historic records, I still feel VERY strongly that the investigators are not emphasizing the FORMAL STRUCTURE of the palos as they should, and allowing too many unimportant superficial aesthetics stand in as an “explanation” for this supposed “not simple origin story” for flamenco. In fact it is the formal structure and it’s nonsensical arrival from some hypothetical “cultural soup bowl” that pours out these very involved and rigid forms, practices and traditions that take decades to master, that lead me to do some deep investigations. At this point (call ME the “fool” if you want) I am convinced the origin story is actually VERY simple, but so far nobody has recognized what I feel are the origins of the forms (cante melodies, harmonies, poetic structures, etc.). In case you missed it I provided some correlations and evidence in this thread that even intrigued Romerito (of all people):
Posts: 16022
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Toccata and recitative (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Traditionally flamenco cante is raw. I always thought the poetization of flamenco cante started in the 19th century.
Demofilo is the first to compile cante letras in the 1880s for Siguiriyas Soleá Fandango etc. One I found correlates to the Ocon Soledad (1860s), and two in George Borrow (collected around 1838 published later). If we make an assumption that some of these are part of the curious collection of “los del Aficion”, who had been active 50 years prior, and Ocon assertion that many of these collected songs originate at the turn of the century or “the end of the previous”, then it is looking like the poetry used for cante can be traced to at least the late 18th century. Castro Buendia admitted in his dissertation that some scholars have indeed correlated the Borrow letras to Demofilo (wish I had known them before I went looking), and perhaps some others of Demofilo to the 18th century. I feel it is a safe assumption that these preserved letras might be tied to song form structures, if not exact melodies, rather than extracted from UNRELATED MUSIC altogether. I have found the 1628 Briseño letra that relates to Serrana and Cielito lindo preserved by Mexican Indians, so perhaps we can even push it back further (17th century or even earlier).
Opposite to Devilhand’s. I don’t think Worms is arguing that specific music (melodies, harmonic ideas, forms, conventions) get borrowed from opera. It’s more like, what does this burst of song do? It does (in most cases) not advance a story. More often, it expresses a feeling about some state of affairs. So there’s a sort of aesthetic confluence. He fleshes that out a bit but I’d have to go back to his book to say how.
I think what he really wants to push back against is the idea that cante is exclusively The Song of The Outcasts, i.e. an art form developed entirely by poor and marginal people with no reference to high/posh/academic musical culture. He prefers a picture in which high and low music knew about each other and engaged somehow. And then he’s speculating a bit about what that engagement was. But (and here I’m speculating) I think he’d be happy with any version that stood up historically so long as there was that upstairs-downstairs exchange.
If there’s interest, I’ll re-read the relevant bit of his book and try to do a better job of laying it out.
I don’t think Worms is arguing that specific music (melodies, harmonic ideas, forms, conventions) get borrowed from opera. It’s more like, what does this burst of song do?
I see, Ok, yeah, that is much more general and vague to me. I get the "aesthetic confluence", but for sure it is a superficial observation. All song expressions (almost) tend to have this drama going on. A "variety show" is a bunch of drama for "your entertainment", basically.
quote:
I think what he really wants to push back against is the idea that cante is exclusively The Song of The Outcasts, i.e. an art form developed entirely by poor and marginal people with no reference to high/posh/academic musical culture. He prefers a picture in which high and low music knew about each other and engaged somehow.
While I agree with this, my personal question would be "why"? Like what is the agenda behind that push back? From a lot of what I read I get a sense of some folks pro Gitano and pro Andalú. The pro Gitano go too far with the credit given than necessary, and the others VERY WRONGLY pretend the contribution is only a singular interpretation or style. The true nuance here that few are admitting is the social situation of RACIAL MIXING, and the distinction between the TYPES of Gitano communities we are talking about in Spain. Romerito was kind enough to supply a beautiful quotation from MAIRENA's "confesiones" where he was shocked when he went to demonstrate the oldest "cante Gitano" for the patriarch of a clan in Extremadura, where he felt the oldest song would resonate (and likely he could acquire more old cante for his project from the Spanish Gipsies), and he hit a brick wall there. They did not understand his singing at all, considered it "payo" singing. His conclusion was the tradition of cante was NEITHER ANDALUSIAN NOR GYPSY in origin. And this actually aligns perfectly with my own investigations. For obvious reasons this observation of Mairena is pushed aside as a "curiosity" and nothing more, and worse, he and his work are marginalized as "racist", which I take to mean overly "pro Gitano" with regard to interpretation and creation. It is a shame really because he did great work IMO, and for him to admit the previous thing is huge as it means deep down he was a scientist discarding his own confirmation biases.
quote:
And then he’s speculating a bit about what that engagement was. But (and here I’m speculating) I think he’d be happy with any version that stood up historically so long as there was that upstairs-downstairs exchange.
Well I don't know when Worms published what you read, but Castro Buendia has addressed this in detail in his 2014 3000 page dissertation and book. Every time I find some academic music thing I double check his dissertation and there it is, at least with some honorable mention if not gone through in detail. ONE of the things that should be in there that is not I dug up and will present in the Mel Bay book vol. 3 in regards to Gaspar Sanz (and some vihuela stuff), but other than that he is very thorough. The general thing we see is this:
Andalusian folk tradition (call it flamenco or proto flamenco and include your seguidillas jotas etc.) does rub elbow with "academic" music. For the folk music we don't have a lot of what we call today "note for note transcriptions" but there is enough tid bits to address some facts about it via a timeline. The bulk of academic music is classical trained musicians publishing stuff inspired by the folk music. I call it "fakemenco", not to be derogatory but to keep it separated from those that really perfom the art forms (palos). These academics have varying degrees of understanding of the true genre, as it looks on paper. Because these works are our only lens, the bias seems to be that this material might have also influenced the folk genre, and worse, the folk genre is in a "proto developmental" state of being while this is going on. I am sorry but we can not tell that from this lens.
Over time what might superficially look like a quid pro quo between genres starts looking more like academic musicians having access to the older publications and semi plagiarizing those to present a new thing that looks like they had also been influenced by their local flamenco buddies. As my own concrete example take Garcia Lorca. No doubt he had access to Ocon for his Sevillanas and Anda Jaleo look quite similar to the much older "Seguidilla sevillana" and the "contrabandista" scores of Ocon. We get the false impression that Garcia Lorca got those songs from his contact with flamenco artists and that the academic and the folk arts somehow overlap, but I no longer see it that way. We can just trace the publication dates on scores.
Another example is in our Mel Bay volume 2 book, that my co-author Corey dug up. I was surprised as unlike the "fakemenco" coplas created by Arcas and Tarrega, there is a malagueña attributed to Tarrega that is clearly informed by a tocaor that understands cantes levantinos vs. generic fandango form. We see it in the instrumental "tercios" on the page. Turns out it is anonymous, found in a collection of stuff of the student of Tarrega and the attribution is assumed via his lessons. I don't see that honestly, it seems the student got this from a legit tocaor for cante. Otherwise Tarrega would have reflected this same knowledge elsewhere in his works.
And lots more in Castro Buendia has been specifically addressed in this regard. That Glinka mess where the copla was added 30 years later etc., happened AFTER 2014 but Kitarist cleared it up for us.
quote:
If there’s interest, I’ll re-read the relevant bit of his book and try to do a better job of laying it out.
So I am interested in Worms' opinion about the opera thing, but more so about the singing technique if that issue was addressed at all. I am already pretty certain there is no deeper musical structure thing to worry about. So anything about what he means with the "extravagant vocal technique" or whatever that is, would be interesting to hear about.
RE: Toccata and recitative (in reply to devilhand)
This is not public video, but I’ll share it here - In June - July we did a recital with a classical singer who lives in Akune. The guitar group accompanied her to sing Japanese popular songs with audience sing along. In addition the guitar group played our classical instrumental stuff and myself and my buddy Masuzaki-san accompanied our singer( trained in Austria and Italy) in the piece Stanchen by Franz Schubert. Here is the first rehearsal we got through, we ironed it out later.
But not really liking Schuberts piano accompaniment that’s usually transcribed for guitar, I simply took the chords and arranged it as a guitar duet with arpeggio and rasgueado. While it’s not a ‘song form’ but an art song with a contemporary to Schubert era structure, I was struck by how it resembled sections of flamenco palos. It’s utilizing the A Phrygian stuff we call por medio chords.
Posts: 16022
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Toccata and recitative (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Bach’s arias …. Just saying
Yes that is different. It would be interesting to know what and when Bach material made it to spain. My understanding was Bach was totally obscure in Europe before Mendelssohn did the Matthew passion, but that hit around that time (Germany 1829, England not till 1854, so it took time to get around). Also he cut out like 10 Arias or something, to make it more "Italian style".)The Italian arias would be the popular ones in Spain more likely at the time we were discussing (Worms), and there are some anecdotal things like Silvero being Italian and Chacon having a juerga with an Italian opera guy who admitted the technique he was using would work for tenor arias.
quote:
This is not public video, but I’ll share it here -
Yes that German lieder thing is interesting. That part at 2:22, where the arpegio goes A-C#E, then F-E-D-C#, is very similar to what cante does. However it is in context of tonic D (building tension on the dominant). Sounds nice. Schubert is an exemplar on the Augmented 6 wiki page.
Even the lyric of Schubert’s ‘romance’ is flamenco like in its images telling about a situation, but not details, leaving you to image that something could go wrong at any minute:
My songs call out gently Through the night as they beseech you; Come down here into the quiet grove of trees, Beloved, come to me!
Slender tree tops whisper as they rustle In the moonlight; No hostile traitor is going to overhear, So do not be afraid, my love.
Can you hear the nightingales singing? Oh, they are beseeching you With the sweet notes of their laments, They are interceding with you on my behalf.
They can understand the longing of the breast, They are familiar with the pain of love, With their silver notes they stir Every sensitive heart.
Let your own breast be moved too, Beloved, listen to me! I am trembling as I await your response; Come, make me happy!
—
From the Bach Aria Bist du bei mir
Be thou with me and I’ll go gladly To death and on to my repose.
Ah, how my end would bring contentment, If, pressing with thy hands so lovely, Thou wouldst my faithful eyes then close
It has a sentiment like a Siguiriya or solea letra, well lots of lyrics are like that, but it’s poetry
Roughly translated into Spanish with google:
Quédate conmigo y con gusto iré a la muerte y al reposo.
¡Ah, qué contento me traería el fin, si, apretando con tus manos tan hermosas, cerraras entonces mis fieles ojos
RE: Toccata and recitative (in reply to estebanana)
I scanned the relevant pages of Worms and, at the cost of some time, tidied up the text in the hope that a machine would be able to translate it. Do not believe anything you hear about how smart these machines are. It was hopeless. So here is the French:
Esthétique du cante
Si l'on fait abstraction de la question du timbre, on constatera une similitude frappante entre les critères d'appréciation du cante flamenco et ceux du bel canto baroque d'un long XVIII° siècle, en gros de Nicola Porpora à Gioacchino Rossini: avant tout la longueur de souffle et l’ornementation mélismatique liée à la reprise variée (l'aria da capo pour le chant baroque, la répétition des motifs ou des périodes mélodiques pour le cante); mais aussi tout ce qui se rapporte au «cantabile» et au chant « spianato » (« large et lent»), dont l'équivalent flamenco serait les cantes libres affectés aux palos de type fandango (malagueñas, granaínas, cantes de mina) et ceux affectés aux polos de tempo lent a modéré (soleares, siguiriyas, tientos, etc.) : legato, portamento, messa di voce; enfin les techniques de mélange et de passage de registre. Naturellement, on ne saurait inférer une quelconque filiation de similitudes entre des esthétiques ou des langages musicaux. Par contre, nous avancerons ici l'hypothèse que le cante, dans ses aspects techniques, est la dernière résurgence en date d'une tradition ibérique de chant savant et virtuose (particulièrement vivante en Andalousie) associée à une esthétique baroque. Même s'il conviendrait d'étayer plus solidement cette théorie, ou éventuellement de la réfuter, on en peut trouver une série d'indices historiques convergents à partir de la Renaissance. Au XVI siècle, dans les Etats Pontificaux, les castrats et les cantatrices sont interdits pour le chant d'église. On a donc d'abord eu recours à des enfants pour les voix de dessus, mais les exigences croissantes des compositeurs en termes de virtuosité les ont rendus rapidement insuffisants. C'est alors qu'on engagea des falsettistes espagnols, connus comme « spagnoletti », qui, dit-on à l'époque, auraient tenu leurs techniques des maures. Le périple Espagne - Rome passait souvent par Naples, très liée à la couronne espagnole. Le règne des « spagnoletti » à Rome dura toute la seconde moitié du XVIe siècle, jusqu'a !'engagement d'un premier castrat par le pape Clément VIII en 1601. Nous perdons alors la trace des falsettistes spagnols en Italie, mais nous retrouvons Naples et les chanteurs espagnols à la fin de l’âge d'or du bel canto baroque. Manuel del Populo Vicente Garcia, ténor et compositeur né à Séville, ami de Rossini qui lui destina le rôle du comte Almaviva (« Le Barbier de Séville»}, auteur d'un hit européen (le « Polo del contrabandista » ) et grand pourvoyeur d’ « airs espagnols » très à la mode à l’époque, envoie son fils Manuel Patricio étudier à Naples auprès de l’un des derniers grands castrats, Giuseppe Aprile, qui perpétue l’école de Leonardo Leo. Manuel Patricio Garcia est l'auteur d'un Traite complet de l'art du chant (1847) qui restera longtemps une référence. Ses sœurs cadettes, Maria Malibran et Pauline Viardot-Garcia, sont des cantatrices célèbres. D'autre part, la zarzuela comme la chanson andalouse doivent beaucoup à ces techniques vocales, et l'on connait leurs liens avec les airs « pré-flamencos ». Remarquons également que la plupart des rôles des zarzuelas baroques (y compris ceux des personnages masculins) étaient écrits pour des « tiples », c'est-à-dire des cantatrices soprano, mais avec un registre étendu vers le grave - l'ambitus vocal de la plupart des cantaoras correspond précisément à celui des tiples. Les échanges musicaux entre Naples et Madrid sont intenses pendant tout le XVIIIe siècle. Nombre de musiciens mènent leur carrière entre ces deux cours, pour lesquelles ils composent des intermèdes, des cantates, des« entremeses », des zarzuelas, etc., sur des textes en italien, en napolitain et en espagnol : Leonardo Vinci, Giuseppe Petrini, Nicola Porpora, Francisco Corradini, Alessandro et Domenico Scarlatti, Jose de Nebra, Antonio Rodriguez de Hita, Pablo Esteve, Manuel Pia, Blas de Laserna, etc. Sauf à postuler que la sophistication vocale du cante aurait surgi brusquement du néant dans le dernier tiers du XIXe siècle, ii nous semble soutenable de penser qu'elle est le dernier maillon d'une longue chaine d'allers-retours (« idas y vueltas ») entre pratiques « savantes » et pratiques « populaires ». Rappelons enfin que pour la plupart des spécialistes, le plus illustre des pères fondateurs du cante se nommait Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar, né à Moron de la Frontera d'un père romain (Nicolas Franconetti Chesi) et d'une mère andalouse (Maria Concepcion Aguilar Villareal), et qu'il apprit probablement les bases de son répertoire de Maria Borrico et El Fillo - en matière de cante flamenco, les Italiens et les gitans sont des Andalous comme les autres, et vice-versa...
Dans les années 1860-1870, des intermèdes flamencos sont fréquemment au programme des théâtres andalous et madrilènes, entre les actes d'un opéra, ou entre deux zarzuelas plus courtes. Les premiers cantaores a succès ont donc côtoyé des chanteurs lyriques. Ils sont d'ailleurs souvent présentés comme des ténors ou des sopranos du « genera flamenco », et nombre d' entre eux ont un répertoire éclectique, entre chanson andalouse, tonadilla et cante. II n'est donc pas trop aventureux de penser qu'ils aient eu l'intention de créer un art vocal autochtone apte à concurrencer le chant lyrique. C'est en tout cas ainsi que l'ont entendu, brièvement, les nobles réactionnaires de vieille souche andalouse qui s'opposaient depuis le début du XIXe siècle aux velléités réformatrices de la monarchie libérale. Le combat politique impliquait des marqueurs culturels : respect des traditions séculaires contre « modernité », tauromachie d'abord, puis le flamenco, personnifies par le« gitan », trouvèrent momentanément un soutien inattendu dans les grandes familles de la noblesse terrienne. II s'agissait d'opposer une culture andalouse « authentique » a une culture cosmopolite, italianisée pour le théâtre lyrique et francisée pour la danse - d'où les parrainages d'enfants gitans par la haute noblesse conservatrice, et l'abondance des patronymes correspondants dans les familles gitanes. Qu'on se rassure, cette tentative d'instrumentalisation du cante et du baile fut éphémère. La crise économique du début des années 1860 incita les propriétaires de théâtres à baisser leurs tarifs, et le public populaire afflua effectivement à des spectacles incluant, entre autres, des musiques et des danses qui lui étaient familières. L'aristocratie, libérale ou non, et la bourgeoisie aisée firent rapidement front commun contre un adversaire prioritaire, et les autorités locales interdirent le flamenco dans les théâtres. Les artistes opérèrent alors un repli stratégique sur les cafés cantantes, qui échappaient à la censure : Silverio Franconetti fut successivement la première grande vedette flamenca sur les scènes de théâtre, puis le premier créateur d'un café cantante consacré exclusivement au flamenco (le « Café de Silverio », ou «Café de la Esca/erilla », inaugure à Séville en 1871).
Une autre parenté entre bel canto baroque et cante doit ici être développée. L'opera seria italien et la tragédie lyrique française étaient marques par l'abondance de figuralismes musicaux censes traduire des affects, qui culminent dans les airs « d’espérance », « de jalousie», « de vengeance », « de fureur », etc. qu'aucun livret digne de ce nom ne peut ignorer. De manière certes plus lâche, les aficionados lient certains polos à des états d'âme: siguiriyas tragiques ou désespérées, soleares austères ou infortunées, malagueñas élégiaques ou mélancoliques, peteneras tristes ou amères, cantiñas joyeuses (dont les bien nommées alegrías}, bulerías jubilatoires, etc. Sauf à tomber dans le lieu commun arbitraire (mineur = triste... et que faire dans ce cas du mode flamenco à tierce instable, mineure ou majeure ?}, on se gardera cependant de généraliser ces connotations entre polos et couleurs émotionnelles. D'abord parce qu'elles peuvent évoluer: avant d'être « tristes », les peteneras, dans leur forme « bailable», étaient franchement allègres; les bulerías contemporaines, surtout depuis les derniers enregistrements de Camarón de la Isla, peuvent être « tragiques ». D'autre part, parce que les modèles mélodiques en tant que tels ne renvoient à aucun affect spécifique. Les textes sont souvent plus évocateurs, mais on trouverait sans peine beaucoup de contre-exemples. C'est donc essentiellement l'interprétation qui exprime des états d'âme, et non le texte musical, ni même parfois littéraire, en lui-même. A condition de tenir compte de cette différence fondamentale - ce n'est pas la partition mais l'interprète qui prend en charge la figuration des affects - le cante nous semble bien relever d'une esthétique musicale baroque, en ce que son objectif est d'exprimer des « passions ». Le meilleur compliment qu'un aficionado peut adresser à un cantaor est d'ailleurs qu'il « transmet ». L'expressivité est donc la valeur première du cante, vers laquelle tendent toutes les techniques vocales mises en œuvre. II est possible sans trop forcer le trait de pousser plus avant le parallèle entre l'esthétique de la musique baroque et celle du flamenco, notamment pour le chant. Les œuvres classiques de la fin du XVIIIe siècle et du XIXe siècle généralement fondées, au moins implicitement, sur une progression narrative similaire à celle du roman, nommée « forme sonate » : 1) présentation d'une situation potentiellement conflictuelle (exposition de deux thèmes de caractères opposes, parfois désignés par les musicologues comme « masculin » et « féminin »); 2} péripéties (développement - transformations de tout ou partie des deux thèmes, modulations, mutations rythmiques, etc.); 3) dénouement (réexposition impliquant dans la plupart des cas le triomphe final du premier thème, « masculin »). A l’opposé de la progression narrative de la forme sonate classique, l'aria de l'opera seria baroque est une forme close, de type A/ B / A', qui explore statiquement les expressions d'une seule émotion, le déroulement du drame étant dévolu aux récitatifs. II serait d'ailleurs plus exact d'écrire qu'il s'agit d'explorer, non une émotion abstraite (si tant est qu'elle puisse exister}, mais les relations entre des personnages concrets qui la font naitre. C'est pourquoi les compositeurs du XVIIe siècle et de la première moitié du XVIIIe siècle ont élaboré des tournures musicales types connotées a des gestes théâtraux conventionnels (on parle d'ailleurs couramment de « gestes musicaux »}, dont I' ensemble et !'articulation constituent une véritable rhétorique, revendiquée comme telle, et dont la codification est familière au public autant qu'aux compositeurs et aux musiciens. L'expression « stile rappresentativo », qui apparait au début du XVIIe siècle, est par lui-même révélateur de l'ascendance théâtrale des arias baroques - et des formes instrumentales qui en sont issues, la suite de danses par exemple. Des lors, il est logique que le texte ne soit pas narratif, et qu'il soit court. Quelques vers suffisent à générer plusieurs minutes de musique, et la reprise variée (A') du thème mélodique de la section A et de son texte consiste à explorer les nuances de l'émotion« représentée » par l'aria, là encore au moyen de figures codées (mélismes, diminutions, etc.) dont la virtuosité est partie prenante. Les cantes ont les mêmes caractères généraux, notamment la clôture statique de la forme, la reprise variée, (mais pas forcément sur une structure tripartite - cf. supra) la brièveté et le parti-pris non narratif des textes. Le cante, comme la musique instrumentale qui en est partiellement issue (le toque), pourrait être considéré comme un stile rappresentativo andalou, dont les gestes musicaux et des rhétoriques étaient familiers à la fois aux artistes et au public lors de sa formation et du premier développement de son répertoire (fin du XIXe siècle et début du XXe siècle). Cette affirmation pose en outre la question de la réception et de la perception ultérieures du cante, plus d'un siècle après sa t plus encore par des publics étrangers à sa culture d' origine. Le « marquage» («marcaje ») du chant, par lequel les bailaores figurent le cante, musique et texte, en temps réel est en tout cas une illustration frappante d'une telle conception rhétorique de la performance. II est curieux de constater que des sainètes musicales très en vogue dans les années 1940-1960, les « zambras escenicas » (avec orchestre et/ou piano, guitare et chant) reprennent en format de poche le couple récitatif / aria de I'opera seria et de la zarzuela du XVIIe siècle. Souvent plus ou mains théâtralisées et interprétées en duo, ces zambras sont basées sur de courts scenarios et alternent des cuples (chansons de variétés) narratifs qui font progresser l'action et des cantes - en général fandangos, tientos ou soleares - qui l'interrompent pour figurer les affects de l'un ou l'autre des personnages. On en trouvera des exemples célèbres dans les zambras de Manalo Caracol, en solo(« La Niña de Fuego »,«Romance de Juan de Osuna», « Agua en et coco», « La Salvaora », « Carce/ero, Carcelero », etc.) ou en duo avec Lola Flores(« Embrujo »,«La Niña de la venta », etc.).
For what it's worth I did a right click in a google browser then 'translate selection to english'. Thank you for posting.
"Leaving aside the question of timbre, we will note a striking similarity between the criteria for appreciating cante flamenco and those of baroque bel canto of a long 18th century, broadly speaking from Nicola Porpora to Gioacchino Rossini: above all the length of breath and the melismatic ornamentation linked to the varied reprise (the aria da capo for baroque song, the repetition of motifs or melodic periods for cante); but also everything related to "cantabile" and "spianato" ("wide and slow") singing, whose flamenco equivalent would be the cantes libres assigned to palos of the fandango type (malagueñas, granaínas, cantes de mina) and those assigned to polos of slow to moderate tempo (soleares, siguiriyas, tientos, etc.): legato, portamento, messa di voce; finally the techniques of mixing and register passage. Naturally, one cannot infer any similarity between aesthetics or musical languages. On the other hand, we will put forward here the hypothesis that cante, in its technical aspects, is the latest resurgence of an Iberian tradition of learned and virtuoso singing (particularly alive in Andalusia) associated with a Baroque aesthetic. Even if it would be appropriate to support this theory more solidly, or possibly refute it, one can find a series of convergent historical clues from the Renaissance onwards. In the 16th century, in the Papal States, castrati and singers were banned from church singing. Therefore, children were initially used for the upper voices, but the increasing demands of composers in terms of virtuosity quickly made them insufficient. It was then that Spanish falsettists, known as "spagnoletti", were hired, who, it was said at the time, had inherited their techniques from the Moors. The Spain-Rome journey often passed through Naples, which was closely linked to the Spanish crown. The reign of the "spagnoletti" in Rome lasted throughout the second half of the 16th century, until the first castrato was hired by Pope Clement VIII in 1601. We then lose track of Spanish falsettists in Italy, but we find Naples and Spanish singers again at the end of the golden age of Baroque bel canto. Manuel del Populo Vicente Garcia, tenor and composer born in Seville, friend of Rossini who intended for him the role of Count Almaviva ("The Barber of Seville"), author of a European hit ("Polo del contrabandista") and great purveyor of "Spanish airs" very fashionable at the time, sent his son Manuel Patricio to study in Naples with one of the last great castrati, Giuseppe Aprile, who perpetuated the school of Leonardo Leo. Manuel Patricio Garcia is the author of a Complete Treatise on the Art of Singing (1847) which will remain a reference for a long time. His younger sisters, Maria Malibran and Pauline Viardot-Garcia,are famous female singers. On the other hand, both zarzuela and Andalusian song owe a lot to these vocal techniques, and we know their links with "pre-flamenco" airs. It should also be noted that most of the roles in Baroque zarzuelas (including those of the male characters) were written for "tiples", that is, soprano singers, but with an extended register towards the lower register - the vocal range of most cantaoras corresponds precisely to that of the tiples. Musical exchanges between Naples and Madrid were intense throughout the 18th century. Many musicians pursued their careers between these two courts, for which they composed interludes, cantatas, "entremeses", zarzuelas, etc., on texts in Italian, Neapolitan and Spanish: Leonardo Vinci, Giuseppe Petrini, Nicola Porpora, Francisco Corradini, Alessandro and Domenico Scarlatti, Jose de Nebra, Antonio Rodriguez de Hita, Pablo Esteve, Manuel Pia, Blas de Laserna, etc. Unless we postulate that the vocal sophistication of cante would have suddenly emerged from nowhere in the last third of the 19th century, it seems tenable to us to think that it is the last link in a long chain of back and forth ("idas y vueltas") between "learned" and "popular" practices. Finally, let us remember that for most specialists, the most illustrious of the founding fathers of cante was called Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar, born in Moron de la Frontera to a Roman father (Nicolas Franconetti Chesi) and an Andalusian mother (Maria Concepcion Aguilar Villareal), and that he probably learned the basics of his repertoire from Maria Borrico and El Fillo - in matters of cante flamenco, Italians and gypsies are Andalusians like the others, and vice versa...It seems to us sustainable to think that it is the last link in a long chain of back-and-forths ("idas y vueltas") between "learned" and "popular" practices. Finally, let us recall that for most specialists, the most illustrious of the founding fathers of cante was called Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar, born in Moron de la Frontera to a Roman father (Nicolas Franconetti Chesi) and an Andalusian mother (Maria Concepcion Aguilar Villareal), and that he probably learned the basics of his repertoire from Maria Borrico and El Fillo - in matters of cante flamenco, Italians and gypsies are Andalusians like the others, and vice versa...It seems to us sustainable to think that it is the last link in a long chain of back-and-forths ("idas y vueltas") between "learned" and "popular" practices. Finally, let us recall that for most specialists, the most illustrious of the founding fathers of cante was called Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar, born in Moron de la Frontera to a Roman father (Nicolas Franconetti Chesi) and an Andalusian mother (Maria Concepcion Aguilar Villareal), and that he probably learned the basics of his repertoire from Maria Borrico and El Fillo - in matters of cante flamenco, Italians and gypsies are Andalusians like the others, and vice versa...
In the 1860s and 1870s, flamenco interludes were frequently featured in the programs of Andalusian and Madrid theaters, between acts of an opera, or between two shorter zarzuelas. The first successful cantaores therefore rubbed shoulders with lyric singers. They are often presented as tenors or sopranos of the "genera flamenco," and many of them had an eclectic repertoire, ranging from Andalusian song, tonadilla, and cante. It is therefore not too far-fetched to think that they intended to create an indigenous vocal art capable of competing with lyric singing. In any case, this is how the reactionary nobles of old Andalusian stock, who had been opposing the reformist tendencies of the liberal monarchy since the beginning of the 19th century, briefly understood it. The political struggle involved cultural markers: respect for age-old traditions versus "modernity," first bullfighting, then flamenco, personified by the "gypsy," temporarily found unexpected support in the great families of the landed nobility. It was a matter of opposing an "authentic" Andalusian culture to a cosmopolitan culture, Italianized for lyric theater and Frenchified for dance—hence the sponsorship of Gypsy children by the conservative high nobility, and the abundance of corresponding surnames in Gypsy families. Rest assured, this attempt to instrumentalize cante and baile was short-lived. The economic crisis of the early 1860s prompted theater owners to lower their prices, and the popular public did indeed flock to shows that included, among other things, music and dances that were familiar to them. The aristocracy, liberal or not, and the wealthy bourgeoisie quickly formed a united front against a priority adversary, and the local authorities banned flamenco from the theaters. The artists then made a strategic retreat to the cafés cantantes, which escaped censorship: Silverio Franconetti was successively the first great flamenco star on the theater stages, then the first creator of a café cantante devoted exclusively to flamenco (the "Café de Silverio", or "Café de la Esca/erilla", inaugurated in Seville in 1871).
Another relationship between baroque bel canto and cante must be developed here. Italian opera seria and French tragédie lyrique were marked by the abundance of musical figuralisms intended to convey affects, which culminate in the arias of "hope", "jealousy", "revenge", "fury", etc. that no libretto worthy of the name can ignore. In a more loose way, aficionados link certain polos to states of mind: tragic or desperate siguiriyas, austere or unfortunate soleares, elegiac or melancholic malagueñas, sad or bitter peteneras, joyful cantiñas (including the aptly named alegrías), jubilant bulerías, etc. Unless we fall into the arbitrary commonplace (minor = sad... and what to do in this case with the flamenco mode with an unstable third, minor or major?), we will however be careful not to generalize these connotations between polos and emotional colors. Firstly because they can evolve: before being "sad", the peteneras, in their "bailable" form, were frankly cheerful; contemporary bulerías, especially since the last recordings of Camarón de la Isla, can be "tragic". On the other hand, because the models melodic as such do not refer to any specific affect. The texts are often more evocative, but one could easily find many counter-examples. It is therefore essentially the interpretation that expresses states of mind, and not the musical text, or even sometimes the literary text, in itself. Provided that we take into account this fundamental difference - it is not the score but the performer who takes charge of the representation of affects - the cante seems to us to fall within a baroque musical aesthetic, in that its objective is to express "passions". The best compliment that an aficionado can pay to a cantaor is, moreover, that he "transmits". Expressiveness is therefore the primary value of the cante, towards which all the vocal techniques employed tend. It is possible without exaggerating too much to push the parallel between the aesthetics of baroque music and that of flamenco further, particularly for singing. The classical works of the late 18th and 19th centuries, generally based, at least implicitly, on a progression narrative similar to that of the novel, called "sonata form": 1) presentation of a potentially conflicting situation (exposition of two themes of opposing characters, sometimes designated by musicologists as "masculine" and "feminine"); 2} twists and turns (development - transformations of all or part of the two themes, modulations, rhythmic mutations, etc.); 3) denouement (reexposition involving in most cases the final triumph of the first, "masculine" theme). In contrast to the narrative progression of the classical sonata form,The aria of Baroque opera seria is a closed form, of the A/B/A' type, which statically explores the expressions of a single emotion, the unfolding of the drama being given over to the recitatives. It would be more accurate to write that it is a question of exploring, not an abstract emotion (if it can exist), but the relationships between concrete characters that give rise to it. This is why composers of the 17th century and the first half of the 18th century developed typical musical turns of phrase connoted with conventional theatrical gestures (we commonly speak of "musical gestures"), the ensemble and articulation of which constitute a true rhetoric, claimed as such, and whose codification is familiar to the public as much as to composers and musicians. The expression "stile rappresentativo", which appeared at the beginning of the 17th century, is in itself revealing of the theatrical ancestry of Baroque arias - and of the instrumental forms that came from them, the dance suite for example. From then on, it is logical that the text is not narrative, and that it is short. A few verses are enough to generate several minutes of music, and the varied reprise (A') of the melodic theme of section A and its text consists of exploring the nuances of the emotion "represented" by the aria, again by means of coded figures (melismas, diminutions, etc.) in which virtuosity is an integral part. The cantes have the same general characteristics, notably the static closure of the form, the varied reprise, (but not necessarily on a tripartite structure - see above) the brevity and the non-narrative bias of the texts. The cante, like the instrumental music that is partially derived from it (the toque), could be considered an Andalusian stile rappresentativo, whose musical gestures and rhetorics were familiar to both artists and audiences during its formation and the first development of its repertoire (late 19th and early 20th centuries). This statement also raises the question of the subsequent reception and perception of the cante, more than a century after its t even more so by audiences foreign to its culture of origin. The "marking" ("marcaje") of the song, by which the bailaores represent the cante, music and text, in real time is in any case a striking illustration of such a rhetorical conception of performance. It is curious to note that musical sainètes very fashionable in the 1940s-1960s, the "zambras escenicas" (with orchestra and/or piano, guitar and singing) take up in pocket format the recitative / aria pairing of the opera seria and the zarzuela of the 17th century. Often more or less theatricalized and performed as a duet,These zambras are based on short scenarios and alternate narrative cuples (pop songs) that advance the action and cantes - generally fandangos, tientos or soleares - that interrupt it to represent the affects of one or other of the characters. Famous examples can be found in the zambras of Manalo Caracol, solo ("La Niña de Fuego", "Romance de Juan de Osuna", "Agua en et coco", "La Salvaora", "Carce/ero, Carcelero", etc.) or in duet with Lola Flores ("Embrujo", "La Niña de la venta", etc.)."
Thank you Brenden, lots of juicy info there (and thanks Orson for the translation). I am not keen on responding without citations to these claims, but since I have some background I can sort of contextualize a lot of it. I would need some time to really look into each element but off the top of my head I will respond to some of it.
quote:
In contrast to the narrative progression of the classical sonata form,The aria of Baroque opera seria is a closed form, of the A/B/A' type, which statically explores the expressions of a single emotion, the unfolding of the drama being given over to the recitatives. It would be more accurate to write that it is a question of exploring, not an abstract emotion (if it can exist), but the relationships between concrete characters that give rise to it. This is why composers of the 17th century and the first half of the 18th century developed typical musical turns of phrase connoted with conventional theatrical gestures (we commonly speak of "musical gestures"), the ensemble and articulation of which constitute a true rhetoric, claimed as such, and whose codification is familiar to the public as much as to composers and musicians. The expression "stile rappresentativo", which appeared at the beginning of the 17th century, is in itself revealing of the theatrical ancestry of Baroque arias - and of the instrumental forms that came from them, the dance suite for example. From then on, it is logical that the text is not narrative, and that it is short. A few verses are enough to generate several minutes of music, and the varied reprise (A') of the melodic theme of section A and its text consists of exploring the nuances of the emotion "represented" by the aria, again by means of coded figures (melismas, diminutions, etc.) in which virtuosity is an integral part.
I pulled this as it circles back to our discussion earlier. It aligns with the recitatives carrying the drama so the Aria is the “single emotion” or expression of a stand alone song. Again, I would have preferred he clarified the concert or “insertion” aria here as it can stand alone from the narrative of the larger theatre piece…and it is something he really HAS to do to show any sort of relation between the genres anyway. Unfortunately the sonata form is not related to palos IMO, and is in fact where the formal structure issue arises such that we can trace the musical form of structures in this “popular” theatre music (which is also “academic” or written down in publication and manuscript), but the flamenco forms, and the cantes themselves, remain “elusive”. Hence we see this overlap in the academic music that is on red alert for the investigators (mainly thanks to buzz words that relate to flamenco forms, either in titles, lyrics, subject, etc.) and as I said Castro Buendia has addressed practically ALL the related material in his 3k page dissertation.
To be clear again, his agenda and conclusion is that flamenco form is “vague” or ambiguous, and coming into focus thanks to Silverio and his cafe environments. Unfortunately he does NOT define the formal structures and leaves this issue deliberately vague itself (we take decades to master these formal structures) and that allowed him to interpret certain important evidence (Ocon) in a manner to better fit that conclusion (it is not yet “Soleá” or “Polo” we are seeing here….), and I have been very vocal that I disagree with this….that I am seeing the formal structures there in the transcriptions and they are decidedly “not novel” in that moment (1860s), but much older. But having said that, Castro is pointing out important details in all that material and anyone wondering about the relationship of “zarzuelas” and all that mess, that might be mixing in CANTE and creating this potential quid pro quo with theatre/opera, should go after specific pieces and look at what he has to say about them, and what they look like on paper. My reading of it is that thanks to his rigor, we can see how academic musicians had an influence on each other…but my take is this does NOT say anything about the real art going on, which is hinted at by proper “transcriptions”, rare as they are, by Ocon and few others, and anecdotes only. “Musical gestures, melisma, diminution, dance suite, emotion, expression, etc” all that stuff is very superficial and could apply to any music really, and Castro has analyzed these details, just have a look.
quote:
The cante, like the instrumental music that is partially derived from it (the toque), could be considered an Andalusian stile rappresentativo, whose musical gestures and rhetorics were familiar to both artists and audiences during its formation and the first development of its repertoire (late 19th and early 20th centuries). This statement also raises the question of the subsequent reception and perception of the cante, more than a century after its t even more so by audiences foreign to its culture of origin. The "marking" ("marcaje") of the song, by which the bailaores represent the cante, music and text, in real time is in any case a striking illustration of such a rhetorical conception of performance. It is curious to note that musical sainètes very fashionable in the 1940s-1960s, the "zambras escenicas" (with orchestra and/or piano, guitar and singing) take up in pocket format the recitative / aria pairing of the opera seria and the zarzuela of the 17th century. Often more or less theatricalized and performed as a duet,These zambras are based on short scenarios and alternate narrative cuples (pop songs) that advance the action and cantes - generally fandangos, tientos or soleares - that interrupt it to represent the affects of one or other of the characters. Famous examples can be found in the zambras of Manalo Caracol, solo ("La Niña de Fuego", "Romance de Juan de Osuna", "Agua en et coco", "La Salvaora", "Carce/ero, Carcelero", etc.) or in duet with Lola Flores ("Embrujo", "La Niña de la venta", etc.)."
Popular perception is interesting. Since flamenco “magically appeared” in the 1830s-60s, it seems to have remained rather “elitist” and closed, when it comes to the real forms. The clan or tribal meeting of Planeta and the other gypsies all with artistic nick names, the clearly pseudo-flamenco classical overlap, what I call “fakemenco” that flirts with the forms, is still alive and well and we see this distinction continuing with the mentioned “Caracol Zambras” etc….where the real flamenco master knows perfectly well the distinction between the proper art form and what he presented as theatrical. There is no reason to believe that it needed to be a different animal long ago, as in Opera/theatre drama, had it been a part of the actual practiced tradition of the flamenco music and dance. It could have just as easily been kept distinct all along the way. I mean Ocon separates the material in his collection such that what we might deem as “flamenco” is at the end of the book all together, not mixed throughout, and far away from the earlier examples of seguidilla and polo that are very different in character. We still have that distinction right NOW. That is partly why it was so surprising for me to see that collection. I think what worms is digging for is the connection to performance practice…as in what a good or typical performance PROGRAM might involve, rather than what that music actually is or should be. MAYBE a few singers sang louder, these old cantes all of a sudden, thanks to the inspiration of a contemporary “pavorroti” or whoever, and that singing was different than grandma did it quietly in the kitchen or on the patio with an intimate group. That would NOT change what the melody IS, or means. In the public arena yes we see this music mixture…but palo names or titles don’t always provide us the truth. Which cante is sung, how fast, what soniquete, etc., all that stuff. To understand that a “Rondeña” was performed amid this Zarzuela…it says almost NOTHING. The baggage there is too big to unpack. Whether back then or right now, the “public” in general does not know much about flamenco form.
My opinion on why the mystery and elusive nature of this topic, that explains the overlap that Worms and others are seeing, is that the true repertoire was very old and preserved by the elite community, until such time they brought it forward to the public…and along the way and still now, this repertoire was mixed in a basically “disguised” or semi-veiled manner, dances fast with castanets etc., strange melodies you have to learn in the moment and play the right chord for, borrowing the bland common song titles (what is this thing all of a sudden in Phrygian?, oh this is OUR Polo “gitano” or “flamenco”, or our special “siguidillas”, or old “romance”, or Dolores here sings a different type of Malagueña, not for dancing….”…I mean it is there in the historical anecdotes, coded in the Ocon score based on a first hearing or something crazy like Mozart could do with Salieri, and we still refer to those times with our sevillanas that sounds like happy trite popular melody then suddenly shifts all dark and phrygian for NO DARN GOOD REASON, all of a sudden, and a huge etc. The repertoire is elitist, preserved by a community that needed to keep it secret, then carefully mixed in the popular arena as part of a PROGRAM, while remain pure to its form, melodic truth (as opposed to lyrics), family lineages/heritage untarnished to a large degree, and very deliberately …and it still is with most fusions (corruptions?) being rejected or ignored.
That is a lot covered. I want to address some of the rest separately when I have time.
It was a lot of info, so here is a few more thoughts:
quote:
Leaving aside the question of timbre, we will note a striking similarity between the criteria for appreciating cante flamenco and those of baroque bel canto of a long 18th century, broadly speaking from Nicola Porpora to Gioacchino Rossini: above all the length of breath and the melismatic ornamentation linked to the varied reprise (the aria da capo for baroque song, the repetition of motifs or melodic periods for cante); but also everything related to "cantabile" and "spianato" ("wide and slow") singing, whose flamenco equivalent would be the cantes libres assigned to palos of the fandango type (malagueñas, granaínas, cantes de mina) and those assigned to polos of slow to moderate tempo (soleares, siguiriyas, tientos, etc.): legato, portamento, messa di voce; finally the techniques of mixing and register passage
Why ignore timbre? It is tied to technical delivery (phonation methods). Flamenco is not “one timbre”. Perhaps with opera, at least now, the genre is very much “one low-larynx timbre” with subtle variation hard to discern unless by an expert. Chacon had a run in with an opera singer apparently, and the technical overlap was discussed specifically. I fear Worms is concerned about the “gitano voz afilla” or scratchy or harsh voice stereo type, that goes back to Planeta and Fillo (Planeta criticized it as “Broncado”, and did not think it appropriate for cante, more concerned that it was becoming “popular” already, or copied by other singers in the genre). Breath length and melisma can translate musically to “held vowel, and scalar runs”. The correlation to “cantes libres” for cantabile and spinato must have to do with the non-rhythmic nature of those genres, by comparison to rhythmic popular song. All that mess, however, is MUSICAL specific things related to the actual composition intent of the composer, or the way in which a traditional melody is done. In 1838, Dolores (possibly related to Mellizo) from Cadiz sung a malagueña that confused the observer (Estebañez Calderon) and the gypsies explained to him this was not the regional folk dance song, but one to sit and listen to….our modern concept of “pa tra” or “pa Lante” in regards to the role of the cante being for backing a dancer or not. We don’t know much about the rhythmic expression, how free it might have been or not, but for SURE there was already a distinction in the tradition itself (admitting I assume Planeta and tribe are carrying what becomes known as the “flamenco” tradition, as that word was not used by Calderon, but WAS used by George borrow the same year, and I am tempted to infer the famous Mellizo melody that does not even fit the fandango chords might have been what she did). There is no reason yet to infer a similar lyrical approach to an aria melodic delivery is inspiring the cante libres, but I feel that is where Worms wants to go with this “striking similarity”. The “slow to moderate tempo” for the core palos listed, has NO BASIS historically yet established. All evidence we see points to fast tempos closer to what we call today “Solea por bulerias” etc. Ocon gives 184 bpm for Soledad. First recordings never slower than 130 bpm, etc. Late 70s we see the slower tempo that I feel Worms is alluding to, and these found ONLY in dance accompaniments, and likely used for drama/theatrics. So this could be argued for MODERN flamenco interpretations, but not the relationship going on in 1800s, unless we find new evidence of this situation. (Having said that, I believe the tempo was in fact SLOWER for the cantes and deliberately sped up to disguise their nature via seguidilla/polo/zarabanda type tempos of the dance. But this is irrelevant to what Worms is arguing).
The last bit there is about vocal technique I mentioned earlier:PASSAGIO. This is biological fact that needs to be dealt with by every singer and a tricky thing for vocal teachers to address. It is an elusive subjective sensation that is hard to train into people by teachers and you see people studying for years, or the “natural” talents that tap into it, etc. IN the end there are yet different approaches, but it goes for ALL HUMAN SINGING!! In flamenco, the use of the capo for SET IN STONE MELODIES, means that the singer is choosing how this cante that MANY PEOPLE interpret, will get into the passagio zone. For one guy, the “quejio” or vocal cry tends to break up there on the eee or ooo vowels (think about yodeling). For opera, dropping the larynx and tilting it forward via the sensation of “apogio” or diaphragm support, you will BYPASS the break zone and keep tight chord closure as you pass through it, with real vowels. Attempts to do this with speaking voice, the larynx raises and certain vowels will crack into a type of falseto sound, and work arounds are vowel modifications and such. The result is a personal sound and expression that is NOT what opera is going for. The most extreme comparison I could give is El Gallina (Romero), might even be getting his name from using his speaking voice up in the passagio, embracing the vocal crack, where as Chacon is dropping and tilting the larynx, never cracking in that zone, and preferring the high capo to get up there. So this technique issue is a more general vocal concept, not one that we need to focus on between these two specific genres. We don’t see “Gallinas” in opera, but maybe there used to be? Perhaps the low larynx took over much like the “camaroneros” have done today? It would be a can of worms to study. Here is a quick demo for opera verses speaking voice in the high end of the passagio (starts E or F and things change after Bb so dealing with this Db is interesting)….one is a “falsetto” that is “reinforced” using the speaking voice, and the other is the tenor tilted larynx. They sound the same to untrained ears but are totally different mechanisms:
That leads us to the history lesson Worms gives us about falsetto Spaniard singers and castrati. Having understood that previous video, how the heck are we going to know what technique these guys were using back then? To some people it is ALL falsetto up there, but there is Mix, chesty belt, tenor laryngeal tilt, etc., and we don’t have a way to know what they got away with back then.
quote:
On the other hand, we will put forward here the hypothesis that cante, in its technical aspects, is the latest resurgence of an Iberian tradition of learned and virtuoso singing (particularly alive in Andalusia) associated with a Baroque aesthetic. Even if it would be appropriate to support this theory more solidly, or possibly refute it, one can find a series of convergent historical clues from the Renaissance onwards. In the 16th century, in the Papal States, castrati and singers were banned from church singing. Therefore, children were initially used for the upper voices, but the increasing demands of composers in terms of virtuosity quickly made them insufficient. It was then that Spanish falsettists, known as "spagnoletti", were hired, who, it was said at the time, had inherited their techniques from the Moors. The Spain-Rome journey often passed through Naples, which was closely linked to the Spanish crown. The reign of the "spagnoletti" in Rome lasted throughout the second half of the 16th century, until the first castrato was hired by Pope Clement VIII in 1601. We then lose track of Spanish falsettists in Italy, but we find Naples and Spanish singers again at the end of the golden age of Baroque bel canto. Manuel del Populo Vicente Garcia, tenor and composer born in Seville, friend of Rossini who intended for him the role of Count Almaviva ("The Barber of Seville"), author of a European hit ("Polo del contrabandista") and great purveyor of "Spanish airs" very fashionable at the time, sent his son Manuel Patricio to study in Naples with one of the last great castrati, Giuseppe Aprile, who perpetuated the school of Leonardo Leo. Manuel Patricio Garcia is the author of a Complete Treatise on the Art of Singing (1847) which will remain a reference for a long time.
No citations, so I will have to look up singers being banned from which State, which church, etc., in the Renaissance. From Wiki, it seems the Spanish falsetto tradition is confusing from proper eunuchs that sang in choirs under Muslim rule. I know the procedure for kids was illegal so it was back ally stuff, but the church allowed them in 1550s, so no “banning” of them. Spanish singer in Sistine chappel 1558 was a castrato. Perhaps the confusion Worms has is coming from the lack of a clear use of the term openly and proudly until official promotion of them. They banned WOMEN singers, and therefore needed male sopranos, that could also be the confusion (or he is talking about a different church than the Roman one).
The thing about children and range has to do with the vocal polyphony. Tenors and the “tenorizans” were the driving force of motets, as in the melodic range of the cantus firmus or plainchant theme resided in the tenor part (usually a modern baritone range as we could think of it today), and the main melody determins mode and cadence. These would be the simple melody so the descant or counter voice would reside ABOVE the main melody. Things like that phrygian cadence we discussed where you need a D above the F…that is for the higher voice. It ended up that the high voice melody of early music could get intricate (not necessarily technical, but harder to sight sing than a Chanson, famous drinking song, or plain chant theme). The OLDER choir boys had the lower voices biologically and it was a pain in the butt to train the young ones to do the descant. So they started switching the roles, and putting the easy familiar melody to the kids, and octave higher, and the more complex counter melodies for the older boys in the choir. The CONCEPT of “tenorizans” would be the same, just we recognize the strong melodic identity to reside in a different voice than the tenor. My understanding was castrati were encouraged because of the financial benefit the family would get for this service, so totally encouraged by the Roman church. The issue with choir boys and congressional singing was more a Protestant church thing, where laymen and women could sing in octaves and kids in choir sang in Latin, etc. Worms skips over the Farinelli-Scarlatti connection to Spain, and jumps to 1800s already. Garcia wiki said he traded falseto and tenor voice to interpret two roles at once. At the same time admitting lowering an aria a minor third cuz it was too high. All curious things that don’t tell us much without audio recordings.
He is mentioned by Ocon, and like I said about Lorca, in this collection the Sevillanas and this “contrabandista” famous thing of Garcia that seems to have inspired “anda Jaleo” seat next to each other in the collection (p. 46 of Ocon, p. 431 appendix of Castro), demonstrating this academic music thing floating above the real flamenco situation, pointing toward it without BEING it. I would admit some similarity to siguiriyas on paper for the Polo by Garcia from “El Criado Fingido”, so again an academic borrowing from flamenco rather than vice versa. [Castro admits about this "polo" that its lamenting and gypsy style due to its phrygian nature, is reflecting the popular culture ie, influenced FROM outside of the academic sphere, rather than vice-versa as Worms seems to want it].
quote:
On the other hand, both zarzuela and Andalusian song owe a lot to these vocal techniques, and we know their links with "pre-flamenco" airs. It should also be noted that most of the roles in Baroque zarzuelas (including those of the male characters) were written for "tiples", that is, soprano singers, but with an extended register towards the lower register - the vocal range of most cantaoras corresponds precisely to that of the tiples.
See, that connection is universal about technique, not Andalucia specifically. “Tiple” is again a musical PART. The range or tessitura is not relevant if people are singing falseto. The “tiple” range is just like any other singing….they need or want the high note to project the main melody. Don Giovanni has bass singers featured famously. We don’t have such a thing in flamenco…we use a capo. CantaorAs have a tessitura like any other singer…think about it for just a second. Capo 0 for Piriñaca and 8 por medio for Paquera or Maria Vargas corresponds precisely to NOTHING. We are talking about the same melody even, which you won’t see in opera. Remember it was weird to transpose an aria by a minor 3rd even. Worms is not giving credit to the composer ie specific music, and focusing on the PERFORMANCE similarities chosen. The thing of singing fandangos in the 1920s they call “opera Flamenca” and it was a performance program aesthetic (too much fandango coplas in otherwords, and it inspired the nerds (academic aficionados) to “revive” Cante Jondo in 1922…and no pros attended cuz they were WORKING at gigs singing Fandango! ).
quote:
Unless we postulate that the vocal sophistication of cante would have suddenly emerged from nowhere in the last third of the 19th century, it seems tenable to us to think that it is the last link in a long chain of back and forth ("idas y vueltas") between "learned" and "popular" practices. Finally, let us remember that for most specialists, the most illustrious of the founding fathers of cante was called Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar, born in Moron de la Frontera to a Roman father (Nicolas Franconetti Chesi) and an Andalusian mother (Maria Concepcion Aguilar Villareal), and that he probably learned the basics of his repertoire from Maria Borrico and El Fillo - in matters of cante flamenco, Italians and gypsies are Andalusians like the others, and vice versa...
So “vocal sophistication” is his opinion relative to what ever “unsophisticated vocals” are. Yes the music mysteriously emerges, but again it is not a style of “vocal sophistication” as a definition…it is called “Flamenco” which means already “Flemish” and it is based on formal structure palos, ie melody chords and rhythm. The key didn’t matter with a capo, the technique did not matter with voz affilla vs others, the payo vs the gitano thing, the speed, etc. all been addressed. So if he included the whole package together there, yes I agree with him it is “learned” practices…but “popular”? That is the whole point of the mystery…it was NEVER popular and it still is NOT. It is an elitist culture that does it, learns it, disseminates it, based on both tradition, canon, and personal interpretation within the limits of that tradition. They (outsiders) call it “popular” because it seems to be a subset of "folk music", but even Mairena admitted not enough Andalusians actually know it and do it, and the gypsies outside don’t know it AT ALL. So there is an Ida y vuelta of form, yes…but Italian? Silverio IS Italian … he is the focus of Castro Buendia’s dissertation. At no point does he assert Silverio to be pushing the Italian influence, though he does come to exemplify the “payo” style of cante flamenco. His voice following through Chacon (we are to assume based on anecdote) and other payos that name him, is NOT the Fillo thing Planeta was arguing about. Just the opposite in fact. If the opera was important, then Castro would have pointed us to these details as part of his conclusions that it was Silverio and the cafe that solidified the palos via performance. Instead he says he sees Andalusian, gypsy is only interpretations, nothing from Roma or Pakistan/india to be seen, no Arabic or North Africa stuff, and the oldest “Andalusian” he correlates is Pisador/Fuenllana to a line of verse from Polo. Again, instead of the aria connection, the old romance/romanesca motet type genre is closer to the formal structures, and the melisma and interpretive elements of the Roma all around the world is enough to account for the expression. Frank Sinatra vs Gypsy Kings. Same song but very different interpretation.
In the 1860s and 1870s, flamenco interludes were frequently featured in the programs of Andalusian and Madrid theaters, between acts of an opera, or between two shorter zarzuelas. The first successful cantaores therefore rubbed shoulders with lyric singers. They are often presented as tenors or sopranos of the "genera flamenco," and many of them had an eclectic repertoire, ranging from Andalusian song, tonadilla, and cante. It is therefore not too far-fetched to think that they intended to create an indigenous vocal art capable of competing with lyric singing. In any case, this is how the reactionary nobles of old Andalusian stock, who had been opposing the reformist tendencies of the liberal monarchy since the beginning of the 19th century, briefly understood it. The political struggle involved cultural markers: respect for age-old traditions versus "modernity," first bullfighting, then flamenco, personified by the "gypsy," temporarily found unexpected support in the great families of the landed nobility. It was a matter of opposing an "authentic" Andalusian culture to a cosmopolitan culture, Italianized for lyric theater and Frenchified for dance—hence the sponsorship of Gypsy children by the conservative high nobility, and the abundance of corresponding surnames in Gypsy families. Rest assured, this attempt to instrumentalize cante and baile was short-lived. The economic crisis of the early 1860s prompted theater owners to lower their prices, and the popular public did indeed flock to shows that included, among other things, music and dances that were familiar to them. The aristocracy, liberal or not, and the wealthy bourgeoisie quickly formed a united front against a priority adversary, and the local authorities banned flamenco from the theaters. The artists then made a strategic retreat to the cafés cantantes, which escaped censorship: Silverio Franconetti was successively the first great flamenco star on the theater stages, then the first creator of a café cantante devoted exclusively to flamenco (the "Café de Silverio", or "Café de la Esca/erilla", inaugurated in Seville in 1871).
Sorry for segmenting this, it is tons of info. Ok here is important. “Rubbing shoulders” gets out the superficial “cultural mixing bowl” thing that we ALL believed getting into this art form. It is important to distinguish the interpretation and delivery in performance vs the substance of the actual musical forms. “Andalusian song, tonadilla, and cante” is all vague because the palo titles are vague, even now on record jackets. You need to really know the melodies to know what “Rondeña” or “Tona” mean. We can’t infer very much from these titles as there is overlap with unrelated musical forms. “Tango”. What is that gonna be? We don’t know. “Tientos”. By Cabezon or Terremoto? They are unrelated. Or are they? The idea that they might be competitive is fine, but to what extent? Nessun Dorma vs Malagueña de Mellizo? It just seems silly to me that that would influence the genre at all. As I said previously, perhaps sound volume, projection, etc., those things I could see change the way one delivers the melody but not the melody itself. Were NEW melodies created via this inspiration? We have not seen it but it would be interesting. The problem is this melody would have to either 1. Be the basis of a new form or 2. Be manipulated to fit an existing form. IN both cases it has to be accepted and incorporated into the genre lexicon. Even Camaron and Paco could NOT DO THAT, at least with their attempt of “canastera”. People sing that as a crystallized one off song, not a new “palo”.
The next blurb seems to me informed by Leblond. It seems to be mixing some info from different timelines. On the one hand, the Nobel names issue is already established by Planetas time, and LeBlond uses it to account for the 1785 census that included Planeta’s dad. This Nobel padrino naming thing, taking in the artistic nickname thing with it, is super interesting and deserves DEEP investigation. I suspect it might go back to the Renaissance, as it is possibly traceable via baptismal records. (They proved Caracol relation back 6 generations to Planeta and his dad). People might not realize that the bullfight thing goes back even to the first “flamenco” bullfighter Carlos the V himself the Flemish king of spain. The culture there (certain Spanish nobility, not Carlos) I think involved from the start and still there as part of the long story of the song forms. Nobody finds it odd the gypsy+ elitist bullfighter connection thing. The “gypsy personified” stuff…well, again, RACIAL MIXING is not taken carefully as a distinction…it is always “payo vs gitano”….but how about nobles having kids with gypsies and the resulting gypsy lines are vague mixtures and nick names help keep it vague by design? Paquera is paya or gitana? What I think MATTERS is she is precisely BOTH. That is part of the long story here, and why Mairena had to deal with it head on with some outside clan (he was shocked they did not recognize his cante at all). Leblond has good info but messed up the Flemish soldier story totally, so not a perfect scholar. He is pro-gitano, and provided this great lineage story, but fails to distinguish the tribes or point out flamenco lineage is a specific subset and you can’t lump them all together racially as one group. He might feel a need to defend the race against those that want to relegate the gitano contribution to flamenco to be mere interpretation of Andalusian tradition … at least it is the vibe I get, but then we arrive with people like Mairena even confused.
The anti-Italian dance and music thing I saw in the 1790s “Preciso” treatise about Seguidilla Polo and Tirana that Kitarist linked. That is outside of flamenco proper from my perspective, but has relevance since the flamencos adapted those song form titles possibly via poetry for different melodies. The Liberal monarchy stuff comes quite a bit LATER, as far as I understand it, so I am surprised by that connection, plus wouldn’t that bias work AGAINST opera influence? And that competition means doing a similar musical style? I guess he is meaning “flamenco is the answer counter to Italian opera”. So it is now “anti opera”? Doesn’t make much sense to me. So Worms is mixing and matching facts that are painting the wrong picture a little here. “Banning flamenco” from the theatre forced it into cafe cantantes? 1871? We have this underground culture meeting in special places in 1838, and already Kitarist showed us the earliest Cafe Cantantes were already open these years. Ocon is collecting from the “cafes” those “popular” songs that were admittedly old, in 1856-67. Silverio the first “Star” , but that is exactly what “Planeta” means! Demofilo feels the cafe popularity is hurting puro flamenco ALREADY IN 1880s! As for flamenco drawing negative attention (target for shut it down or out) recall the knife fights, prostitution, etc., that surrounded the culture too often.
In a more loose way, aficionados link certain polos to states of mind: tragic or desperate siguiriyas, austere or unfortunate soleares, elegiac or melancholic malagueñas, sad or bitter peteneras, joyful cantiñas (including the aptly named alegrías), jubilant bulerías, etc. Unless we fall into the arbitrary commonplace (minor = sad... and what to do in this case with the flamenco mode with an unstable third, minor or major?), we will however be careful not to generalize these connotations between polos and emotional colors. Firstly because they can evolve: before being "sad", the peteneras, in their "bailable" form, were frankly cheerful; contemporary bulerías, especially since the last recordings of Camarón de la Isla, can be "tragic". On the other hand, because the models melodic as such do not refer to any specific affect. The texts are often more evocative, but one could easily find many counter-examples. It is therefore essentially the interpretation that expresses states of mind, and not the musical text, or even sometimes the literary text, in itself. Provided that we take into account this fundamental difference - it is not the score but the performer who takes charge of the representation of affects - the cante seems to us to fall within a baroque musical aesthetic, in that its objective is to express "passions". The best compliment that an aficionado can pay to a cantaor is, moreover, that he "transmits". Expressiveness is therefore the primary value of the cante, towards which all the vocal techniques employed tend. It is possible without exaggerating too much to push the parallel between the aesthetics of baroque music and that of flamenco further, particularly for singing.
Sorry again, this last bit was on my mind as well. He talks us through the generalization of the forms interms of their emotional content (Siguiriyas is a lament, Algerias a joyous cry, Bulerias fast and jovial, etc.), which we all know, and he admits, reveals huge contradictions when we really get our hands dirty. Estebañez Calderon lumps it all into three categories (using "trunk" that inspired aficionados today to hang palos on the "cante tree" branches), American (ida y Vuelta?), Andalusian in 2/4 (clearly he meant 3/4 Fandango enormous family including cantes levantinos), and the "arabic" Phrygian stuff (old romances, he describes the "E minor chord" which is no doubt E Phrygian sound), same palos described by Richard Ford at this time as "Indian belly dance" inspired by gypsy women (I am saying an Orientalist stereotype is here), and these are the "Oldest" meaning they must go back to medieval spain and have been oddly preserved.
What Worms and others that ignore the emotive distinction of the three "keys" we actually use in flamenco today, (and rightly the lyrics are "Happy or sad" independent of those melodies and chords), are MISSING, is the historical basis of these musical distinctions that goes BACK TO RENAISSANCE MODES. There used to be a literal aesthetic reason for choosing one mode vs another, and I am saying that our flamenco somewhat preserves this system...it was being parsed out via reading the ancient greek philosophers on music (it was vague, but the Spanish humanist musicians where WAY into it, and that is why we see Orpheus, who sometimes wore the "Phrygian cap", on the vihuela book covers and such), and a basic understanding of modal thinking would clue the investigators in to this Phrygian thing, assumed to be influenced by Orientalism and moorish occupation (stereotypes). I am saying I was even surprised that Phrygian was "a thing" in Spain and Europe in general, long before Bach Well tempered clavier, and have come to accept that these modal ideas remain EVER PRESENT in modern music making. Whenever there is a theoretical break down (hmmm, weird but this song is not in C major NOR A minor, it is G mixolydian or something), it is pointing to the survival of that old thinking about modes and what feelings those things evoked. Sure, they might have been different between individual composers back then, and different than what we think today (mostly biased by film scoring), but the idea this old system went "extinct" is wrong. Perhaps it is a "fossile" but the Phrygian thing they do in spain has a basis and history and theory, and even relates to the specific word "flemish" as was still understood to be "josquin de prez" as of the first announcement of "Musica Flamenca" in Madrid in 1853...however it had evolved to be then known as TWO music systems, the proper flemish one long dead, and the "new" one in Andalucía. It is amusing to me that if investigators just started THERE and say "what a minute...who was into this phrygian thing historically other than Arabs/Indians, who actually weren't that much anyway", they would eventually be lead to the same small repertoire I have been lead to, where the blueprints of the cantes/tonos, reside.
Posts: 16022
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Toccata and recitative (in reply to devilhand)
amazing artistry
Seems the title is inspired by this queer techno night club? Some lady died as they sell hallucinogenic drugs there, hence her crazy dream I guess. Deep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berghain
Printable Version
We are talking about the same melody even, which you won’t see in opera. Remember it was weird to transpose an aria by a minor 3rd even. Worms is not giving credit to the composer ie specific music, and focusing on the PERFORMANCE similarities chosen. The thing of singing fandangos in the 1920s they call “opera Flamenca” and it was a performance program aesthetic (too much fandango coplas in otherwords, and it inspired the nerds (academic aficionados) to “revive” Cante Jondo in 1922…and no pros attended cuz they were WORKING at gigs singing Fandango! 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread