Toccata and recitative

Toccata and recitative (Full Version)

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devilhand -> Toccata and recitative (Oct. 19 2025 7:06:59)
Any thoughts? Recitative is flamenco cante. Particularly the way it's accompanied. Toccata is flamenco guitar music. At 1:15-1:35 Andalusian cadence? https://www.musicaldictionary.com/glossary/toccata/

Ricardo -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 19 2025 16:41:27)
Interesting observations, however there is nuance. Recitative: No, it is not like cante for these reasons. 1. It is not poetry, it is text that is barely melodic designed to connect the actual real poetic songs to form an actual story. So there is not syllabic structure nor rhyme scheme in the letras. 2. Exposition to tell a story seems related but the idea with recitative is that the text all relates to the SAME STORY. Cante letras are self contained stories in only a few lines of verse. No letra is related to any other, even in one palo. If it is the rare case that two poems seem to relate to each other, it might be better viewed as ONE letra all together. There is imposition or interpretation of "songs" called "cuple", but to cantores this is understood as not traditional cante, but rather they use the compas of the song form to interpret special songs from outside the genre (like Mexican rancheros or Portuguese fado, etc.). And of course there are special cases such as Garcia Lorca poetry that has been adapted to cante. But again, "poetry" is not recitative. Toccata: Andalusian cadence by definition has parallel 5ths and octaves. You are hearing the bass line only. D-C-Bb-A. The actual chords are Bb/D, Am/C, Gm/Bb, and A final. It has the same character but technically he is avoiding parallel 5ths and octaves with those inversions. Again, this situation goes back to the voice leading rules of the renaissance hanging on through the baroque and classical period.

Brendan -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 19 2025 19:17:45)
Claude Worms makes the opposite suggestion, i.e. that flamenco letras are a bit like arias, i.e. a singer uses extravagant vocal technique to express the emotion that the character is feeling at that moment. His argument for the relevance of this is that mid-19th century variety shows would include flamenco acts and, also, opera singers doing popular arias. Naturally, the flamencos, seeing how well-paid and popular the aria singers were, did what all musicians do and stole/copied/imitated/adapted what they could. Worms isn’t a fool and knows that there is no simple origin story for flamenco. This is just one part of a bigger story he wants to tell about flamenco developing through a back-and-forth between elite music and low-rent music.

devilhand -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 20 2025 11:26:30)
quote: Recitative: No, it is not like cante for these reasons. 1. It is not poetry, it is text that is barely melodic designed to connect the actual real poetic songs to form an actual story. So there is not syllabic structure nor rhyme scheme in the letras. Traditionally flamenco cante is raw. I always thought the poetization of flamenco cante started in the 19th century.

Ricardo -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 20 2025 13:43:51)
quote: Claude Worms makes the opposite suggestion, i.e. that flamenco letras are a bit like arias, i.e. a singer uses extravagant vocal technique to express the emotion that the character is feeling at that moment. His argument for the relevance of this is that mid-19th century variety shows would include flamenco acts and, also, opera singers doing popular arias. Naturally, the flamencos, seeing how well-paid and popular the aria singers were, did what all musicians do and stole/copied/imitated/adapted what they could. Ok, well some more nuance here. “Opposite suggestion” to my comment or devilhand’s? The reason is that “aria” in general are the SONGS I was talking about that are connected by the recitatives. These are verse type songs rather than prose, (prose which is what Devilhand was suggesting was “like cante and its accompaniment”, and I took issue with this). I would agree that cante being song FORMS, are closer in spirit to the arias compared to the recitatives. However, again, the arias will be the music telling the story and are therefore connected via the libretto or overarching text of the musical theatre piece or opera. We would have to say that arias are again different than cantes in this regard, however, there are concert arias and insertion arias which function as stand alone songs or pieces that can be performed to show off the singer’s abilities, and might not have anything to do with the full theatre or opera show, but function to highlight a famous vocal actor of one of the characters. If Worms wanted to say the operatic Zarzuelas were influential on cantaores in the mid to late 19th century, I would say ok, but not because they “stole/copied/imitated/adapted” arias, rather, the zarzuelas were likely inspired by/borrowing from the popular flamenco culture and other folk song and dance that might have been from various regions, such as fandangos, seguidilla from La Mancha, jota from the north etc. C. Oudrid as published for guitar by Damas was an interesting example where I am seeing cante mineros creeping in to the Rondeña of the theatre piece, or orchestral work, whatever it was (academic music as Castro calls it). So perhaps an idea to feature a cantaor via some specific zarzuela or whatever that was famous, I could see that….but a big push back I must give is that the cante is based on SONG FORMS that seem to be (and it is argued about now and vague to most scholars) completely set already (I am basing this on Ocon, Estebañez Calderon, etc.). Song forms are NOT STAND ALONE SONGS, they incorporate a mixture of unrelated lyric poems, which is quite different than even stand alone arias or zarzuelas numbers, etc. “Madrigal” as a genre is close to a formal structure, but a “Romanesca” is much closer to the concept of a palo via its specific elements. Sure there are SOME cantes that have a limited lyric set and perhaps even could be traced to such an origin (have not yet seen that specifically done with an aria, and Worms or anybody else claiming this needs to show the correlation), but the MAIN palos we consider cante today (Solea, siguiriyas, martinetes, Fandango, malaguena, cante mineros etc.) are very different than that. Only we have vocal delivery in some cases “extravagant vocal technique” is not a good way to put it, but it superficially has commonality with opera and dramatic theatre singing (I give him that while admitting there is nuance in technique to be hashed out, like Planeta and Filo arguing in real time in 1838 before a juerga). Same deal with Pakistani Sufi, Arabic, Greek/Turkish etc., singing. quote: Worms isn’t a fool and knows that there is no simple origin story for flamenco. This is just one part of a bigger story he wants to tell about flamenco developing through a back-and-forth between elite music and low-rent music. I am not calling anyone “a fool”, however I wonder if he sings seriously or at all. It is a superficial observation, at least the way you put it earlier about technique. While I admit the back and forth between what flamencologists call “academic” music, and our flamenco traditional palos was certainly there to be seen in the historic records, I still feel VERY strongly that the investigators are not emphasizing the FORMAL STRUCTURE of the palos as they should, and allowing too many unimportant superficial aesthetics stand in as an “explanation” for this supposed “not simple origin story” for flamenco. In fact it is the formal structure and it’s nonsensical arrival from some hypothetical “cultural soup bowl” that pours out these very involved and rigid forms, practices and traditions that take decades to master, that lead me to do some deep investigations. At this point (call ME the “fool” if you want) I am convinced the origin story is actually VERY simple, but so far nobody has recognized what I feel are the origins of the forms (cante melodies, harmonies, poetic structures, etc.). In case you missed it I provided some correlations and evidence in this thread that even intrigued Romerito (of all people): Cante melody correlations: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=358242&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=cantus&tmode=&smode=&s=#358319 Also related are some Vihuela tabs mid way down this thread: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=219083&p=1&mpage=5&tmode=1&smode=1

Ricardo -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 20 2025 15:20:20)
quote: Traditionally flamenco cante is raw. I always thought the poetization of flamenco cante started in the 19th century. Demofilo is the first to compile cante letras in the 1880s for Siguiriyas Soleá Fandango etc. One I found correlates to the Ocon Soledad (1860s), and two in George Borrow (collected around 1838 published later). If we make an assumption that some of these are part of the curious collection of “los del Aficion”, who had been active 50 years prior, and Ocon assertion that many of these collected songs originate at the turn of the century or “the end of the previous”, then it is looking like the poetry used for cante can be traced to at least the late 18th century. Castro Buendia admitted in his dissertation that some scholars have indeed correlated the Borrow letras to Demofilo (wish I had known them before I went looking), and perhaps some others of Demofilo to the 18th century. I feel it is a safe assumption that these preserved letras might be tied to song form structures, if not exact melodies, rather than extracted from UNRELATED MUSIC altogether. I have found the 1628 Briseño letra that relates to Serrana and Cielito lindo preserved by Mexican Indians, so perhaps we can even push it back further (17th century or even earlier).

Brendan -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 20 2025 18:25:30)
Opposite to Devilhand’s. I don’t think Worms is arguing that specific music (melodies, harmonic ideas, forms, conventions) get borrowed from opera. It’s more like, what does this burst of song do? It does (in most cases) not advance a story. More often, it expresses a feeling about some state of affairs. So there’s a sort of aesthetic confluence. He fleshes that out a bit but I’d have to go back to his book to say how. I think what he really wants to push back against is the idea that cante is exclusively The Song of The Outcasts, i.e. an art form developed entirely by poor and marginal people with no reference to high/posh/academic musical culture. He prefers a picture in which high and low music knew about each other and engaged somehow. And then he’s speculating a bit about what that engagement was. But (and here I’m speculating) I think he’d be happy with any version that stood up historically so long as there was that upstairs-downstairs exchange. If there’s interest, I’ll re-read the relevant bit of his book and try to do a better job of laying it out.

Ricardo -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 21 2025 14:21:49)
quote: I don’t think Worms is arguing that specific music (melodies, harmonic ideas, forms, conventions) get borrowed from opera. It’s more like, what does this burst of song do? I see, Ok, yeah, that is much more general and vague to me. I get the "aesthetic confluence", but for sure it is a superficial observation. All song expressions (almost) tend to have this drama going on. A "variety show" is a bunch of drama for "your entertainment", basically. quote: I think what he really wants to push back against is the idea that cante is exclusively The Song of The Outcasts, i.e. an art form developed entirely by poor and marginal people with no reference to high/posh/academic musical culture. He prefers a picture in which high and low music knew about each other and engaged somehow. While I agree with this, my personal question would be "why"? Like what is the agenda behind that push back? From a lot of what I read I get a sense of some folks pro Gitano and pro Andalú. The pro Gitano go too far with the credit given than necessary, and the others VERY WRONGLY pretend the contribution is only a singular interpretation or style. The true nuance here that few are admitting is the social situation of RACIAL MIXING, and the distinction between the TYPES of Gitano communities we are talking about in Spain. Romerito was kind enough to supply a beautiful quotation from MAIRENA's "confesiones" where he was shocked when he went to demonstrate the oldest "cante Gitano" for the patriarch of a clan in Extremadura, where he felt the oldest song would resonate (and likely he could acquire more old cante for his project from the Spanish Gipsies), and he hit a brick wall there. They did not understand his singing at all, considered it "payo" singing. His conclusion was the tradition of cante was NEITHER ANDALUSIAN NOR GYPSY in origin. And this actually aligns perfectly with my own investigations. For obvious reasons this observation of Mairena is pushed aside as a "curiosity" and nothing more, and worse, he and his work are marginalized as "racist", which I take to mean overly "pro Gitano" with regard to interpretation and creation. It is a shame really because he did great work IMO, and for him to admit the previous thing is huge as it means deep down he was a scientist discarding his own confirmation biases. quote: And then he’s speculating a bit about what that engagement was. But (and here I’m speculating) I think he’d be happy with any version that stood up historically so long as there was that upstairs-downstairs exchange. Well I don't know when Worms published what you read, but Castro Buendia has addressed this in detail in his 2014 3000 page dissertation and book. Every time I find some academic music thing I double check his dissertation and there it is, at least with some honorable mention if not gone through in detail. ONE of the things that should be in there that is not I dug up and will present in the Mel Bay book vol. 3 in regards to Gaspar Sanz (and some vihuela stuff), but other than that he is very thorough. The general thing we see is this: Andalusian folk tradition (call it flamenco or proto flamenco and include your seguidillas jotas etc.) does rub elbow with "academic" music. For the folk music we don't have a lot of what we call today "note for note transcriptions" but there is enough tid bits to address some facts about it via a timeline. The bulk of academic music is classical trained musicians publishing stuff inspired by the folk music. I call it "fakemenco", not to be derogatory but to keep it separated from those that really perfom the art forms (palos). These academics have varying degrees of understanding of the true genre, as it looks on paper. Because these works are our only lens, the bias seems to be that this material might have also influenced the folk genre, and worse, the folk genre is in a "proto developmental" state of being while this is going on. I am sorry but we can not tell that from this lens. Over time what might superficially look like a quid pro quo between genres starts looking more like academic musicians having access to the older publications and semi plagiarizing those to present a new thing that looks like they had also been influenced by their local flamenco buddies. As my own concrete example take Garcia Lorca. No doubt he had access to Ocon for his Sevillanas and Anda Jaleo look quite similar to the much older "Seguidilla sevillana" and the "contrabandista" scores of Ocon. We get the false impression that Garcia Lorca got those songs from his contact with flamenco artists and that the academic and the folk arts somehow overlap, but I no longer see it that way. We can just trace the publication dates on scores. Another example is in our Mel Bay volume 2 book, that my co-author Corey dug up. I was surprised as unlike the "fakemenco" coplas created by Arcas and Tarrega, there is a malagueña attributed to Tarrega that is clearly informed by a tocaor that understands cantes levantinos vs. generic fandango form. We see it in the instrumental "tercios" on the page. Turns out it is anonymous, found in a collection of stuff of the student of Tarrega and the attribution is assumed via his lessons. I don't see that honestly, it seems the student got this from a legit tocaor for cante. Otherwise Tarrega would have reflected this same knowledge elsewhere in his works. And lots more in Castro Buendia has been specifically addressed in this regard. That Glinka mess where the copla was added 30 years later etc., happened AFTER 2014 but Kitarist cleared it up for us. quote: If there’s interest, I’ll re-read the relevant bit of his book and try to do a better job of laying it out. So I am interested in Worms' opinion about the opera thing, but more so about the singing technique if that issue was addressed at all. I am already pretty certain there is no deeper musical structure thing to worry about. So anything about what he means with the "extravagant vocal technique" or whatever that is, would be interesting to hear about.

estebanana -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 22 2025 3:52:23)
Bach’s arias …. Just saying

estebanana -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 22 2025 9:31:40)
This is not public video, but I’ll share it here - In June - July we did a recital with a classical singer who lives in Akune. The guitar group accompanied her to sing Japanese popular songs with audience sing along. In addition the guitar group played our classical instrumental stuff and myself and my buddy Masuzaki-san accompanied our singer( trained in Austria and Italy) in the piece Stanchen by Franz Schubert. Here is the first rehearsal we got through, we ironed it out later. But not really liking Schuberts piano accompaniment that’s usually transcribed for guitar, I simply took the chords and arranged it as a guitar duet with arpeggio and rasgueado. While it’s not a ‘song form’ but an art song with a contemporary to Schubert era structure, I was struck by how it resembled sections of flamenco palos. It’s utilizing the A Phrygian stuff we call por medio chords.

Ricardo -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 22 2025 12:13:35)
quote: Bach’s arias …. Just saying Yes that is different. It would be interesting to know what and when Bach material made it to spain. My understanding was Bach was totally obscure in Europe before Mendelssohn did the Matthew passion, but that hit around that time (Germany 1829, England not till 1854, so it took time to get around). Also he cut out like 10 Arias or something, to make it more "Italian style".)The Italian arias would be the popular ones in Spain more likely at the time we were discussing (Worms), and there are some anecdotal things like Silvero being Italian and Chacon having a juerga with an Italian opera guy who admitted the technique he was using would work for tenor arias. quote: This is not public video, but I’ll share it here - Yes that German lieder thing is interesting. That part at 2:22, where the arpegio goes A-C#E, then F-E-D-C#, is very similar to what cante does. However it is in context of tonic D (building tension on the dominant). Sounds nice. Schubert is an exemplar on the Augmented 6 wiki page.

estebanana -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 22 2025 12:57:18)
Even the lyric of Schubert’s ‘romance’ is flamenco like in its images telling about a situation, but not details, leaving you to image that something could go wrong at any minute: My songs call out gently Through the night as they beseech you; Come down here into the quiet grove of trees, Beloved, come to me! Slender tree tops whisper as they rustle In the moonlight; No hostile traitor is going to overhear, So do not be afraid, my love. Can you hear the nightingales singing? Oh, they are beseeching you With the sweet notes of their laments, They are interceding with you on my behalf. They can understand the longing of the breast, They are familiar with the pain of love, With their silver notes they stir Every sensitive heart. Let your own breast be moved too, Beloved, listen to me! I am trembling as I await your response; Come, make me happy! — From the Bach Aria Bist du bei mir Be thou with me and I’ll go gladly To death and on to my repose. Ah, how my end would bring contentment, If, pressing with thy hands so lovely, Thou wouldst my faithful eyes then close It has a sentiment like a Siguiriya or solea letra, well lots of lyrics are like that, but it’s poetry Roughly translated into Spanish with google: Quédate conmigo y con gusto iré a la muerte y al reposo. ¡Ah, qué contento me traería el fin, si, apretando con tus manos tan hermosas, cerraras entonces mis fieles ojos

Ricardo -> RE: Toccata and recitative (Oct. 22 2025 13:34:12)
quote: Can you hear the nightingales singing? Oh, they are beseeching you With the sweet notes of their laments, They are interceding with you on my behalf. They can understand the longing of the breast, They are familiar with the pain of love, With their silver notes they stir Every sensitive heart. Yes the "ruiseñor" singing is very common in cante letras. Of course the pain of love poetry is a universal and timeless human expression.

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