Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva, Tom Blackshear and Sean O'Brien who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
On the subject of pitch: Surviving wind instruments show that European orchestra pitch as recently as the mid-18th century was as low as A=415Hz, while church organs from that period show pitches as high as A=550Hz. This is just about the range from A-flat to C-sharp, according to the modern standard of A=440Hz.
apologies in advance, but this is heavy reading below about pitch and key info.
I have read this info, and more about it, as well. There was a story about Bach having to adjust some parts because some orchestra had horns tuned differently. So the only standard I am aware of is the human voice which has not evolved pitch wise as far as I know, since those early music days. If we take the split of the octave inside the break zone (pasagio) as conceptually between B4 and C5, I noticed a physical change in the natural voice between Bb4 and B4. So basically it would make sense to me that that practice might have been a typical thing to do, however a half step lower (pitch wise) than today's A4=440. If we adjust for the voice range that does in fact give us A4=415 ish. So as of now, I am leaning in the direction that in general, some of the smarter musicians were probably thinking about that "standard" ball park for what notes meant. Also we can consider how many modern rock guitarists would instinctively tune their guitars down to Eb as it suited most voices better and basically made all the music more robust or darker or whatever adjectives.
As to why A=440, I suspect it might have to do with bel canto techniques replacing the old church practice of chopping off teen boy's nuts and giving the family a stipend to keep their high voices in the choir. The Opera thing finally made it clear that even those boys had to learn a different technique to manage the pasagio because the vocal change at puberty is not really due to the nuts, at least in the high tenor range. So when the technique became more standardized I suspect the so called "tenor high C", the big "note" where that change occurs, shifted from B4 to C5. So over time instruments were designed around this idea that powerhouse singers wanted the higher key (string technology in stride with this development). Today opera singers don't have the luxury of telling the conductor "can we do this aria in Ab please, I am not feeling it today", the whole point of training is that you can deliver the full range night after night.
So yes this is all conjecture, but when we look back at renaissance music I have been trying to get a handle on both how the music functions and how it relates to music today. Here is a break down of the Narváez 8 modes and what is "inferred" by his suggestions.
Mode 1 (normally D dorian/minor). He says "primero tono por ge sol re ut", which I interpret to mean he is transposing the mode up to the higher soprano clef. So the C clef moving up to G clef means the normal pitch of "D" moves up a 5th, to "A". However he also provides "clef" indications as to how an additional transposition might be occurring conceptually. We can infer what that means for the tuning of the instrument:
Clef:G tuning implied, Mode:G dorian/Minor, G standard:G dorian/Minor (normal), Modern Guitar:E dorian/minor capo 3.
Mode 2 (normally G dorian/minor final on D). Now it gets interesting to me. Clef: E tuning implied Mode: D dorian, G standard:F dorian/minor (a m3rd up), Modern guitar: D dorian/minor capo 0 (!!)
At this point it is not clear if he wants us to swap modes from the norm as per the clefs, or if that second mode from the view of G standard is transposed down a whole step from G down to F? Or is D dorian exactly what it would be on a modern guitar? These are the questions I have.
Mode 3 (normally E phrygian final on E, however, in his version his melodic E is harmonized by an A minor with picardy 3rd, aka, a plagal cadence final). Clef: A tuning implied Mode: E phrygian (plagal cadence to A) G standard: D phrygian (down whole step due to implied tuning up a whole step) Modern Guitar: B phrygian capo 5
Mode 4 (E phrygian normally the plagal version, he starts melody on A). Clef:F# tuning implied Mode: E Phrygian (starts on iv A note) G standard: F Phrygian (half step sharp) Modern guitar: D phrygian capo 2.
Mode 5 (normally F lydian/major and he says "de consonancia") Clef:G tuning implied Mode: F major G standard: F major Modern guitar: D major capo 3
Perhaps by "consonancia" he means up till now he has been transposing modes to different pitch levels relative to the instrument tuning, however, THIS ONE is in the correct conceptual "key"?? I don't know really but would make sense (and gives credence to "G standard" as a concept even if the pitch was not G).
Mode 6 "sobre fa ut mi re" (normally F lydian/major with a theme used like a fugue subject transposed at the 5th on scale degrees 1,5,7,6 and 4,1,3,2). Clef: D tuning implied (very low) Mode: F major G standard: Bb major, a 4th UP due to implied tuning down a 4th. Modern Guitar: G major tuned down a whole step (!)
Mode 7 "sobre ut re mi fa mi" (normally G mixo/Major, but here more like C major, based on a theme in C using 5,6,7,1,7 and 1,2,3,4,3...you can see why "G Mixolydian" is a concept here melodically. Clef:A tuning implied Mode: C major (G Mixolydian) G standard: Bb major, a whole step flat Modern guitar: G major capo 5
Mode 8 (G mixolydian/Major) Clef: G tuning implied Mode: G mixo/major G standard: G mixo major Modern Guitar: E mixo/Major capo 3. Most of this piece relates to A major and with internal tuning relates extremely closely to our flamenco Rondeña, even some themes overlap with Montoya's famous creation.
So what does it all mean? The stats above show only 2 of 8 modes from the perspective of "G standard" are in the correct conceptual "key", the first mode being transposed even if the implied tuning is standard. We have to conclude either 1.tuning variability, 2. different instruments in his collection (by clef you can see which are which implied), 3. or simply you can do some wild transpositions with your lute/vihuela which ever it is.
Maybe it is all 3 of the above, who knows. As per the modern guitar perspective, half of ALL the modes are in the same conceptual "key" of Em/Gmaj/B phrygian. The same key as your girl in the above video is using. It seems to be the predominant tonality....not unlike a modern guitar. Mode 2 is the unique one that matches a modern guitar literally and mode 6 on a guitar tuned flat. Rondeña (mode 8) and D phrygian (por abajo mode 4) are the "exotic" guitar keys if you want, but certainly used in flamenco guitar traditions. Nuñez even has a Soleá in D tuned via Rondeña that would match up with this mode 4.
For me it is a stretch to believe that those Renaissance guys were mentally transposing into those weird keys like F minor, F phrygian, and Bb major, and the modern guitar perspective makes the whole system pretty clear and simple, if "exotic" in its relationship to flamenco guitar vs baroque and romantic guitar.
EDIT: for reference to the original Vacas piece we discussed, he says "primero tono" which means conceptually D dorian, his clef indications infer an A tuned instrument (whole step up), which means a standard G tuned vihuela is transposing the song a whole step down (C dorian) and modern guitar would be in A dorian/minor capo 3 (or like Segovia with no capo). Maza transported/adapted it as if the A tuning ie the clefs are literal, not conceptual.
A 440 was decided on in a conference in London in 1939. The reason the 440 was selected is because it was a median compromise that would do several things at once. It was a good compromise between 19th century composers who liked a higher A reference because it made the harmonies hotter, think Berlioz, Wagner, Bruckner and the complex harmony they were after. And they also knew pitch for A varied widely during the baroque, from low to high, as much as 455. They wanted to standardize all that because orchestras, traveling groups had to use the pianos and other non traveling instruments when they toured. Everyone wanted to be on the same page and not have to retune pianos on the spot for a piano trio.
Using A 440 also gave string makers a base line average to shoot for with tension, the bowed string family used overwound gut and steel strings. If you know during the early 19th century through to the twentieth violins, celli and violas went through a transformation in which they were modified with a new neck ( saving the original scrolls) which changed the ‘overstand’ or how high off the body and the projection angle of the neck which made the bridge a bit higher. This modification became standard and was a transition out of the baroque set up which was lower, this transition also included putting in a new stronger bass bar brace in the violin. All this was aimed at new demands composers put onto the string choir of the orchestra. Beethoven’s late string quartet cycle for example benifitted from this modification or a middle step called a ‘transitional stage’ between baroque set up and modern set up. When this baroque violin to modern neck geometry change was made with a stronger bass bar this enabled the string section to tune higher with modern evolving strings and composers’ notions of articulation and also the invention of better bows that drew evenly along the whole length of the bow. The transition to this modern violin geometry foreshadows the 1939 A440 pitch standardization.
There have always been female soprani, the boys just had a different timbre voice quality, which listeners who were discerning came to appreciate. There were always female sopranos from the earliest opera days, like the famous Three Women of Ferrara. A 440 pitch compromise was more about touring conductors and chamber groups not walking into situations where they would have to play with orchestral musicians from another country and then have to decide who’s A reference pitch they’d use.
Just an historical update to this topic I came across. My understanding for a while now was that Pujol was the first to concertize with Vihuela music on stage in Dec. 1927, by his own admission in interviews (and John Griffiths articles). However an Italian dissertation on Pujol implicated that a 1917 article which talked about the Sala Mozart (concert hall in Barcelona) where Pujol and others had been performing old spanish guitar music, that vihuela music was a good choice for classical guitarists to interpret. While this could be in reference to Pedrell pushing Pujol to investigate this a few years before, a foot note claims that this article likely inspired Regino S de La Maza (new addition to the guitar circle in Barcelona with Llobet etc.) to include transcriptions of Milan and Mudarra in his live concert program at the hall. No references for this, so I have been digging and found this review that does claim he played vihuela music in 1917.....so this is a good decade before Pujol.
That reopens the possibility for me that some of these classical guitarists who clearly knew where to find the repertoire could have influenced the flamenco guitarists and their Rondeña guitar form.
Interesting who was digging out the vihuela music first.
I have already explained how Regino adapted the Vacas for guitar, so that took some in-depth analysis on his part, and he was the young guy in the circle. It is making me wonder whether despite Pujol not really getting into the repertoire and displaying it publicly until the "fake vihuela" replicas started getting built (Segovia not introducing any arrangements until the 1950s), perhaps these guys were all investigating the material and talking about it amongst themselves since the 1917 etc. That would in fact be a case where someone like Llobet could have passed this tuning and mode thing on to the local flamenco guys such as the blind Francisco Escude (who also played piano maybe?) in Barcelona, and Borull, the student that rubbed elbows with Montoya of course. So the public expression by the classical guitarists that comes later is not telling the whole story of what those guys all thought of or knew about when it came to this repertoire. Pujol does do the Baxo contrapunto with drop G to F#, and that relates strongly to Montoya's material, so it is very possible this was known to all these guys in the early 1920's and was disseminated via private classes we are not privy to, via Borrull. It would take a lot of digging to piece it all together, but Castro Buendia's article had a footnote saying a new discovery of a piece of music in Borrull's family's collection in score form called "La destempla", as seen by Gamboa, is going to be published "soon", which may shed light on these connections. Tricky thing. In case anyone missed it the article was here:
Also strange I had not yet read references to this guy's 1923 transcription (piano and modern lute tabs) and analysis of selections from narvaez, including a Piano expansion of that Baxo piece, which he curiously calls "Danza Antigua Alemana". Also he has expounded on the modes implication just like I have above (using his 1-8 modes) with a chart, concluding (like I did) wildly different tunings or possession of a couple different sized instruments, if you see his chart and tunings, they are the the same as I concluded earlier, however, I disagree (actually am confused why) that they are that high pitch. One octave LOWER (the three on the right, D,E, and F# bass notes) is what the clefs imply and makes sense for vocal motets IMO.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread