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I saw this and am going to make a V slotted nut to see if it's as good as it sounds, and doesn't bind or fray the strings. I imagine the V slots need to be highly polished to prevent this.
Your thoughts please, what do you prefer?
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
It looks like it would make a better nut than what you previously had. Although most makers use graduated sets of nut slot files, if you do the Vee accurately it will work.
It’s just my opinion, and Pablo is a master teacher, that it’s ‘six of one, half dozen of another’. Which ever method you choose, your technique has to the best you can do, and then better. With the Vee system to make it work you need files that cut crisp hard planes. Some practice with the files to get a good technique might be a good idea.
Filing in situations like this is more effective if you don’t saw back and forth. The stroke should be one direction and guided straight as an arrow through the work. My teacher the bow maker used to say imagine you can shrink yourself to the scale of the slot and stand in it to inspect it. That would give you a full sized map of the terrain you’re trying to make into flat planes.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to estebanana)
Thank you, Stephen. This is great advice. I have had a couple of goes already to practice, kinda fakked them both up and realised I wasted my cash on some cheap crap files. But it was a very useful learning experience. I have ordered diamond files now so will have another crack at it at the weekend. Love the incredible shrinking man procedure. Thanks again.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
This seems like it might be more of a challenge to file each slot to the correct height. The bottom of the V will have to extend past your marked string height line, just like Pablo shows in his drawing. And since each string diameter is different it will settle at different depth for each V slot — I think? Obviously he knows how much he needs to file past the line, but it’s not as dummy proof as a U slot.
Sounds like a great idea though! I wish I had gotten a set of files with a handle instead of those thin nail file types. I always have to do everything at least 3 times before I get it right so it’s a lot of filing
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
quote:
ORIGINAL: silddx
Gosh, making nuts is kinda tedious. But I channelled some zen sh*t and started enjoying it.
You must shrink yourself down into a 3mm tall Yoda and jump into the slot.
Files, there are different patterns, probably diamond triangle files are not as good as a few triangle metal files of different grade, rough, medium and extra fine.
Posts: 15756
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
And since each string diameter is different it will settle at different depth for each V slot — I think?
I was thinking the bottom of each string needs to land the same on the bottom (the difference staying above) or else the lower dipping basses would buzz.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
You must shrink yourself down into a 3mm tall Yoda and jump into the slot.
Thanks, I tried that and found it impractical, and I couldn't lift the files. So I bought a JEM-ARM300F2 GRAND ARM™2 Atomic Resolution Analytical Microscope.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I was thinking the bottom of each string needs to land the same on the bottom (the difference staying above) or else the lower dipping basses would buzz.
I was thinking the same. I graduated the V slots on my fourth attempt and it seems to be better than previous attempts.
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RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
Another issue is that the nut channel is not perfectly flat and needs levelling. But I'm nervous about that. I might gingerly file a some of the nasty bits down without lowering the channel. Actually looks like some of it has been removed.
Interesting neck / headstock joint, wonder what that's all about.
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RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
I tried the fanned slots on attempt no.5 but messed up the angles a bit. Binned.
No.6 is a success, and I was quicker and more confident with the process. I'm pleased with it. I will let the strings settle overnight and fettle the slot heights tomorrow. Playing this morning on No.4 the height was great, and the strings sounded clean and pure, it might be wishful thinking but I got a bit of a thrill from the tone the strings were producing, shame I got the string spacing too narrow. Anyway, I think this No.6 will be perfect. Need to be very judicious lowering the slots tomorrow.
Nut width is 51mm, string width centre to centre is 43.5mm, 8.7mm string spacing. A little more space from the fretboard edge for the high E than the low E.
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RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
quote:
ORIGINAL: silddx
Another issue is that the nut channel is not perfectly flat and needs levelling. But I'm nervous about that. I might gingerly file a some of the nasty bits down without lowering the channel. Actually looks like some of it has been removed.
Interesting neck / headstock joint, wonder what that's all about.
I suspect the head either snapped off and was repaired or it's a conversion from a slotted head to peg head. I also suspect the rosewood cap on the head isn't original, nor is the finish on the head (or the top, for that matter). The sides of the head are also a laminate which is hiding whatever went on there. But don't despair, I also think it's a Brazilian Rosewood guitar. The original head veneer was likely Brazilian too, but is now EIR due to the repair/conversion.
On the other hand, I might be nuts. Which should be fine, because that's what the thread's about, after all.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
I suspect the head either snapped off and was repaired or it's a conversion from a slotted head to peg head. I also suspect the rosewood cap on the head isn't original, nor is the finish on the head (or the top, for that matter). The sides of the head are also a laminate which is hiding whatever went on there. But don't despair, I also think it's a Brazilian Rosewood guitar. The original head veneer was likely Brazilian too, but is now EIR due to the repair/conversion.
On the other hand, I might be nuts. Which should be fine, because that's what the thread's about, after all.
Thanks Rob, I appreciate that insight. And yeah the seller said it was Brazilian, no CITES cert though. I'd love to see photos of the guitar as it was originally, just because I'm interested. I was told it was played by a single professional performer for about 20 years who'd bought from Conde in 1997, so it's seen some action and probably had a few 'adventures'. Working guitars get worked on so I wasn't expecting a home player condition instrument.
I'm pretty convinced it was a red finish on the top, there are traces of red around the sides of the soundhole. Also, the seller told me the original Manuel Cáceres rosette was damaged during some work so a new rosette was installed on top of it. Hence it must be a refinished top. I love a guitar with a story.
I found the transverse brace (or 'veneer' as Stephen Frith, the luthier I go to, called it) under the fingerboard end had come unglued at one end, so Steve reglued that and gave it a fret level and redress. He said it's a very nice guitar. It plays really nicely and sounds delightful, I love it.
Some more photos of the headstock joint.
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RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
Cool. The latest pictures show the head is basically encased in laminates, which supports the notion that it might be a slot head to peg head conversion. But, really, it's hard to know for sure and, beyond that, it doesn't really matter what's going on beneath the surface or why it got that way if everything is stable and looking good.
quote:
ORIGINAL: silddx Another issue is that the nut channel is not perfectly flat and needs levelling. But I'm nervous about that. I might gingerly file a some of the nasty bits down without lowering the channel. Actually looks like some of it has been removed.
Be uber careful doing any adjustments to the nut slot. This is one of those things that can easily run away on you. Take a straight edge or a decent 6" ruler and put it in the slot and see if it rocks. If it does then you can identify the high spot and carefully bring that area to level using a chisel to remove the hump by registering its flat side to the bottom of the slot. Don't sand it or use a file or, if you insist, only go in one direction to avoid rocking it. Better not to, however. You could also try using a scraper going across the width of the slot to snick down the high spot but, really, a sharp chisel is the right tool for the job.
The main thing is to avoid hitting the outer edges too much, if at all, as that which is removed isn't coming back. If or when the ruler doesn't rock then it's best to leave well enough alone from that point and just work the nut. Meaning don't bother trying to get a perfect 90 degree angle from the back of the fingerboard to the bottom of the slot, just get it so the nut sits flat in the slot without rocking and then adjust the angle of the bottom of the nut to get the front edge sitting tight to the fingerboard. Otherwise there's a real danger you'll start chewing away at the neck wood and that can lead to the ungentlemanly use of colourful language and, quite likely, alcoholism.
Oh, and if you want to get a nice crisp edge on the veneer side of the slot you need to use a wide chisel registered against the veneer and then cut down into the slot. Then clean up by running your narrow chisel along the bottom of the shaving just to cut away whatever portion of shaving that doesn't just chip off. The intent is to nick away at the corner by going down into the slot (perpendicular to the slot bottom) while registering to the veneer edge then cutting along the slot to remove the shaving while being careful to not remove wood from the actual pre-existing slot itself. You're just creating a square edge, not increasing the depth of the slot. Avoid the temptation to square up by cutting cross grain width-wise along the veneer edge of the slot. See previous remarks re. ungentlemanly behavior, etc...plus it's potentially dangerous.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
ool. The latest pictures show the head is basically encased in laminates, which supports the notion that it might be a slot head to peg head conversion. But, really, it's hard to know for sure and, beyond that, it doesn't really matter what's going on beneath the surface or why it got that way if everything is stable and looking good.
Be uber careful doing any adjustments to the nut slot. This is one of those things that can easily run away on you. Take a straight edge or a decent 6" ruler and put it in the slot and see if it rocks. If it does then you can identify the high spot and carefully bring that area to level using a chisel to remove the hump by registering its flat side to the bottom of the slot. Don't sand it or use a file or, if you insist, only go in one direction to avoid rocking it. Better not to, however. You could also try using a scraper going across the width of the slot to snick down the high spot but, really, a sharp chisel is the right tool for the job.
The main thing is to avoid hitting the outer edges too much, if at all, as that which is removed isn't coming back. If or when the ruler doesn't rock then it's best to leave well enough alone from that point and just work the nut. Meaning don't bother trying to get a perfect 90 degree angle from the back of the fingerboard to the bottom of the slot, just get it so the nut sits flat in the slot without rocking and then adjust the angle of the bottom of the nut to get the front edge sitting tight to the fingerboard. Otherwise there's a real danger you'll start chewing away at the neck wood and that can lead to the ungentlemanly use of colourful language and, quite likely, alcoholism.
Oh, and if you want to get a nice crisp edge on the veneer side of the slot you need to use a wide chisel registered against the veneer and then cut down into the slot. Then clean up by running your narrow chisel along the bottom of the shaving just to cut away whatever portion of shaving that doesn't just chip off. The intent is to nick away at the corner by going down into the slot (perpendicular to the slot bottom) while registering to the veneer edge then cutting along the slot to remove the shaving while being careful to not remove wood from the actual pre-existing slot itself. You're just creating a square edge, not increasing the depth of the slot. Avoid the temptation to square up by cutting cross grain width-wise along the veneer edge of the slot. See previous remarks re. ungentlemanly behavior, etc...plus it's potentially dangerous.
Not sure if any of that made sense or not...
Thanks again, Rob. I ended up leaving well alone, I just scraped two small patches of glue residue flat. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your advice.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Not that it makes any difference, but I think this guitar was converted from roller tuners to pegs at some point.
I remember doing this conversion once in the taller and I thought it was a silly amount of detail work for a false impression. Much easier and more authentic is sell the guitar and buy a peghead
Conversion the other way around, which I have done as well, is much easier. The guitar looks good.
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to silddx)
I've tapered files with a rounded bottom. I'm on the fence as to whether I like the idea of a sharp V slot, and more so with steel string, but many do it.
I grew up with the logic that a gap under the strings 'sucks the tone man'...
RE: Nuts - V slots versus U slots - ... (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
I've tapered files with a rounded bottom. I'm on the fence as to whether I like the idea of a sharp V slot, and more so with steel string, but many do it.
I grew up with the logic that a gap under the strings 'sucks the tone man'...
I don't know about the science theories of V versus U slots, but the guitar sounds good with either. Not sure of the effect on sustain or tone, I might A/B the nuts at some point, but it won't be scientific.
_____________________________
The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
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