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What is it ? Theory knowledge ? for eg, there's a few really good flamenco Guitarists who do not compose. (They're very good and have worked hard to reach there so I've nothing against them )I've seen them play, they've a vast repertoire, also know the nook and corner of guitar theory. Then why are some people unable to compose. My reason for asking is, I want to compose. I do not want to be a copy cat, I'm being a copy cat currently due to the follow the masters advice usually given.
Early listening to music ? I know for a fact many of these Guitarists I talk about have been listening to music since a young age so even this reason might not be it.
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
Guitarists who accompany almost have to compose. If you play for dance, at some point they are going to ask you to play a falseta and that is your opportunity. Same with cante. When the singer takes a break, you have to play something. That creates an obligation and an opportunity. It's true many players who mainly accompany play the falstas of others, but most will play something of their own at some point.
Ricardo pointed you in the direction of a dancer. You'd likely have to come up with a falseta or two to play for her. Maybe you already know some bulerias falsetas por medio but then you get with a singer and he's singing in a key that is better for you to play por arriba. That's when you figure out a falseta that is in that key.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
My two cents: As aspiring flamenco guitarists, we specialize in playing the guitar with a deep focus on compás, executing falsetas within its rhythmic structure, and accompanying singers, etc.... Our goal is to develop aire, and to use our instrument as a medium to bring this unique music to life. Whether performing solo or as part of a cuadro, we aim to express the traditional nuances of flamenco while infusing it with our personal touch.
As a composer-guitarist in this medium, our role expands beyond performance. A composer creates original music, building upon the rich foundations of flamenco or branching into other genres, such as classical, contemporary, or film scores, etc... Composers in any field often possess a deep understanding of musical theory, orchestration, and arranging. Their primary focus is on crafting musical ideas—melodies, harmonies, and rhythms—that are then interpreted by performers. In the context of flamenco, a composer may write new falsetas or entire compositions that challenge traditional structures while maintaining the integrity of the genre, providing a fresh voice for flamenco guitarists to bring to life on stage.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to mt1007)
It can't be theory. These Guitarists I talked know all the theory of the world yet they don't compose. Classical guitarists on the other hand know all the theory yet they don't and can't compose anything. It's something else I think.
Posts: 15723
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
What is it ? Theory knowledge ? for eg, there's a few really good flamenco Guitarists who do not compose.
Sabicas, Paco de Lucia, and Ben Woods were copy cats aka, did cover songs to advance their playing and knowledge.
Ottmar Leibert did not. He composed Barcelona nights and snakechamer, real master works of creativity. I am sure he knows "theory" as you are using the term.
What is takes to compose is INSPIRATION, nothing more. Paco composed his first falsetas because Sabicas noticed Paco was only copying N. Ricardo. Perhaps if paco had copied SAbicas instead (who copied Ramon by about 75%, and several licks from Ricardo himself), he would never have gotten the early inspiration to make his own material.
Inspiration to create new things can come from many sources. Lately I have been into Renaissance vihuela stuff that overlaps with flamenco palos.
Here is a short tutorial on "how to compose" flamenco falsetas...at 1:09:45 time stamped in the comment section. Basically what I learned from Nuñez and it seems it is fairly universal way to do it.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
This looks like a great video , I will definitely see this. Do you have more such videos on YouTube about general knowledge stuff (not falseta tuts)?
And another thing , if it's about inspiration then why is Javier conde unable to compose? The guy knows note by note of every pdl piece so he has plenty of inspiration. It's not just about him , there's many more flamenco guitarists who do not compose. There's something else. I'm not a firm believer in natural talent tbh, it's something else. Maybe a mentality aspect.
Posts: 15723
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
This looks like a great video , I will definitely see this. Do you have more such videos on YouTube about general knowledge stuff (not falseta tuts)?
And another thing , if it's about inspiration then why is Javier conde unable to compose? The guy knows note by note of every pdl piece so he has plenty of inspiration. It's not just about him , there's many more flamenco guitarists who do not compose. There's something else. I'm not a firm believer in natural talent tbh, it's something else. Maybe a mentality aspect.
I have lots of little things on my channel over the years, but normally people pay me for lessons like the one you are watching. I was surprised myself they loaded this (they paid me very well for this workshop).
Javier and Grisha and many others are child prodigies who, unlike most of us, can actually play a lot of the maestro's full compositions...and that ability obvious has inspired them to learn more. It is much like classical music students that get very good very young and that is the path they know and stay on. Composing can be personal...there some things I have created in my life I don't perform other than for myself. I suspect these guys are also like that (no, I KNOW they are). Here is a piece by Javier as far as I know he created it (I could be wrong but I don't recognize a source)
So when most of us try to copy we can a little bit then it is too much to get it all and exact so we twist the idea into our own thing and that is how we "compose" at first. As I state in the video I posted, you don't want to be like ottmar and learn two falsetas then record a full album of uniformed nonsense. Learning/copying never ends even as we create new things as needed. Again, inspiration comes from many sources.
Here is an old one that might help. For example you might have a decent idea but don't know how to apply it yet. I tried to help out a foro member long ago (though I am encouraging him to study more from the maestros):
Posts: 15723
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
How do I know which chords are there in a key? For eg, how do I know l possible chords in the por Medio key?
from learning first how to play compas patterns for each palo, next how those chords function rhythmically for escobillas and llamadas for dance, and finally how they harmonize the MELODY of the singing at the right moment, aka harmony and formal structure of the palos (cante accompaniment). Along the way, you should have been learning falsetas as well, which incorporate those genres/concepts in condensed form. The "theory" is embedded in the tradition and the way it is learned through specific training.
Flamenco guitarists that wanted to understand how their system relates to jazz and classical music are special cases, however, these other genre have the same thing going on...that is "forms" and structures of melody and harmony and rhythm intertwined, set forth by a specific discipline. If you want to create from within a genre, you must first learn the forms.
So you can either learn the harmonic minor chord scale, analysis a sonata allegro form or fugue, or
how to improvise and comp chords for "Satin Doll", read charts, or
play a salida, llamada, letra, escobilla, macho etc., of a "soleá". These are fantastically different guitar disciplines, but all doing the same thing essentially. Music form and style.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
I agree with what Ricardo says. The most important things for someone to compose music are knowledge of harmony and specifically, knowledge of the genre of music they want to write. Knowledge of harmony is a very fundamental tool that helps any musician! This is what the greatest musicians in the world say! However, apart from knowledge of harmony, an essential thing for a musician is to have a wide range of listening experiences!! Another important factor is the imagination of each musician!! No matter how much knowledge someone has, without imagination, they won’t compose something special. Obviously, there are some people with not much knowledge of harmony, but they may have amazing imagination!
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
This thread came at the right time because I watched this youtube video a few days ago. This guy composed flamenco pieces and brought out flamenco albums. His video shows the basics of flamenco harmony and composition. Look at his table showing major and minor scales for flamenco music composition. C, E and A major scales for flamenco at 6:40. As you can see they are different than standard major scales. iii is now III. Why #V? Looks like both V and #V can be used. The 7th degree is not used at all?
At 8:20 minor scales are adapted for flamenco. Is what he shows generally accepted or is it his own theory for flamenco harmony? Since he demonstrated it with examples I believe it's a sound theoretical approach. Can you elaborate more on his major and minor scales for flamenco?
Posts: 15723
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Why #V? Looks like both V and #V can be used. The 7th degree is not used at all?
This means you learned nothing in the old "what scales" thread years back. But that is ok, and it is a nuanced and confusing topic, and will remain so unless people accept some of my NEW arguments, which clear up all the confusion. I guess I never would have changed my mind if we had not hashed that out years ago which compelled me to investigate massive subterranean rabbit holes of music history.
What he is showing is what jazz folks call "the chord scale". Normally, Rick Beato types will use numbers 1-7 instead of his Roman Numeral "grados" for "scale degree triad roots". So right away we have the typical discipline/terminology that needs translation. So imagine romans replaced by numbers "1,2,3,4,5,6,7" and he has two sets of triads in solfeggio symbols for the triad produced above "Grado III" (EG#B as "MI" and EGB as "mi"). All the solfeggio can be translated into letters "abcdefg" with sharps or flats as needed for the three keys of C, E, and A major. (he is giving us Cantiñas tonalities only, though fandango overlaps as do Cante mineros in Rondeña and Minera).
So you need a lot of translation...he is trying to consolidate info for Spanish guitarists that use solfeggio basically. Manolo Sanlúcar would be VERY upset he omits the "grado 7" as he finds it important for most palos. This guy's point is you won't need a diminished chord for Cantiñas I assume.
What he shows is NOT generally accepted, but nor is any other approach IMO. Hence all the arguments and confusion. If you must know my new understanding is that this all goes back to RENAISSANCE practices for modes and counter point, that give rise to a fossilized-relic system for palos that we still use, and this system is tied to the word "flamenco" itself, reference both Flemish polyphonic motet forms, and the geographic origins of the repertoire from a time when a Flemish king ruled both territories.
The solfège is related to "solmization" from that time, the exotic modes from the "tonos" based on plainchant and polyphony, the set cantes we have are literally "cantus firmus" technique in action, the chords we still use for these exotic cadences are tabbed out for vihuela transcriptions of flemish motets in hundreds of works, the general vagueness of compás for cante vs accompaniment, weird stuff like Rondeña tuning is there, poetic meter is there, palo titles such as Romance and Tientos are still utilized, the stupid "V and #V both used????" is explained by musica ficta and the Picardy third rule SPECIFICALLY, exotic modal clashes between cantes levantes and the basic fandango chords, question and answer phrasing, and a HUGE etc., in terms of historical significance.
The only thing that is majorly different is the baroque era strumming and rhythm for dance, which I don't think has ever been considered a huge mystery like all the other stuff I just mentioned. So our flamenco is a fossilized relic that circumvents the Common Practice era (the basis or starting point of Rick Beato type theory and such), and will forever be confusing until a fundamental change of thought occurs. The main reason this is still a "mystery" or confusion, is that the scholars of RENAISSANCE music, strongly gatekeep the practices and terminology SEPARATE from the common practice era terminology/mentality and fail to recognize nor even allow people to connect the historical dots and evolution going on there between Josquin des Prez and Bach. So I am saying there are "extinct musical animals" alive and well, carefully preserved.
We see the same confusion in modern blues and rock pop that uses Renaissance modal cadence and seems to "violate" rules of theory that are from the Baroque/classical time. One hilarious example is Adam Neely confused by Hendrix "hey Joe". So this lack of communication is the issue.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to metalhead)
I am guessing you are asking in reference to more than just flamenco.
Broadly speaking, inspiration and a meaningful, tasteful subsumption of influences will get you a long way. I think there are many other things that are sufficient but not necessary, including things one might think are essential, like a knowledge of one's instrument (sometimes ends up working against a composer, if they become too boxed in by the limitations of their instrument, applies to way too many guitarists IMO).
I'd also argue that a good, and at its ideal, intuitive, understanding of motivic development is a tremendous help, too. I'm pretty big on that when I discuss my compositional approach and what I find makes for aurally pleasing and effective music.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to devilhand)
Pepe Alcala is a very underrated musician or not knowed at all for the mainstream. Hes got great more traditional (not all) albuns , the 4th its the only that i dont like (“Genio y Figuras” (2020).) , the last one that was release some days ago is also nice , but we can see the age on his playing , on youtube videos i think isnt noticeable. Saddly theres no more cds available , but you can download all of his work by his webpage... or youtube.
He allways had a very genuine/traditional style and great tecnique , he won some prizes , and you can find on his albuns and videos some styles that you dont see that often , like "verdiales" "Mariana" "Alborea" "serrana" "garrotin" "Campanileros" He studied on the Corboda Conservatory with Manuel Cano
Hes one of my favourites , hes a nice guy and you can find great stuff.
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Here is a short tutorial on "how to compose" flamenco falsetas...at 1:09:45 time stamped in the comment section. Basically what I learned from Nuñez and it seems it is fairly universal way to do it.
At around 1:21:30 you mentioned G.Nunez arpegio heavy Bulerias composition. Could you name or post other arpegio compositions from Nunez and other guys?
I like the 5, 7 and 9 stroke rasgueado part. You said we accent a beat with ami or amii i ras. But this is only true when we play grace notes (a,m or a,m,i,i finger strokes) before a beat we want to accent. Right?
Conversely when amii ras starts right on beat 1 and 2 like in faster Solea, we have no accents on these beats. No? But the last i downstroke accents beat 3. You know in basic Solea compas we usually play amii amii i on beat 1 2 and 3.
Posts: 15723
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What separates somebody who comp... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
At around 1:21:30 you mentioned G.Nunez arpegio heavy Bulerias composition. Could you name or post other arpegio compositions from Nunez and other guys?
on Gallo Azul: Amor de Dios, Los caños de la Meca, (bulerías) and Puente de los Alunados (he shows this in the Encuentro video).
Flamencos en NY:Suite de La golondrina, La Fuente de La Higuera (tangos in triplets)
Jucal: Trafalgar, Hacia mi (the bulerias ending, he also shows part of this in Encuentro), Isa (Rumba).
Calima:Calima and Sahara are reprised Caños and Puente from the first album. Sevilla is arpeggio driven as well.
Andando del Tiempo:Siempre es Tarde, Templo del Lucero has a few long arpegio falsetas.
For me the big two are Trafalgar and Siempre es Tarde (also recorded as Samaruco on Jazzpaña 2 which is an earlier version with less compressed audio I prefer). I learned a lot from those two pieces. Trafalgar quotes Escudero's Impetu, which he also recorded and I consider the general inspiration for the style. Paco had Zapateado, Moraito had "Vals Buleria" and Habichuela had a rumba that was all arps, but in general it is not very common, and I considered somewhat unique to Gerardo's style.
quote:
But this is only true when we play grace notes (a,m or a,m,i,i finger strokes) before a beat we want to accent. Right?
Larger percentage of the time yes, the final note of the strum is the target or accented beat, however, there are times where you can emphasize an accent by doing the rasgueado on the beat that is typically accented, off setting the normal feel. As an example Almoraima by Paco, when he does compas between falsetas you hear him do an ami i up when you change to the Bb chord on count 3...in effect it accents count 4 by doing that as we have the symmetrical situation when returning to an A chord in normal compas playing, where we change to A on 9 and do a rasguedo that seems to feel like an accent on count 10. He further throws off that accent feel with a countra Tiempo down stroke accentuation between count 4 and 5. While we can say this is a rare occurrence, it also blurs the lines between what accents mean relative to rasgueado patterns...basically the 3,6,8, 10 thing is not some rule, we can in effect accent anything we want in there.
see: 1:38
quote:
Conversely when amii ras starts right on beat 1 and 2 like in faster Solea, we have no accents on these beats. No? But the last i downstroke accents beat 3. You know in basic Solea compas we usually play amii amii i on beat 1 2 and 3.
So the same deal with these longer rolls. I feel we are in effect "accenting" all the beats here with the last one being strongest. I tend to do these as a crescendo for this reason, but for sure when we do "1,2,3" it is all three beats getting a special emphasis verses just a quick grace note before 3. Again, in the above video compare the phrases from 1:19 to 1:32, he does basic solea phrasing with rasgeado 1,2,3, however BELOW, he changed this phrasing to 10, 11, 12, for an interesting effect (at 1:56 to 2:07)
By changing that phrasing, we can see what I was saying before, we can accent whatever we want in the end so long as the compas remains clear.
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