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Hi all, I'm finishing up my fifth guitar (slowly, slowly) and I'd like to learn more on finetuning the top. I must admit, not so sure where to begin. Any recommendations as to where you all like to start out, and what you look to improve? There's no FP on there yet, so all good to go. Cheers!
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
Who knows? Build better and better bridges to start with. It doesn’t matter how ‘fine tuned’ the top is if the bridge isn’t right for that top. The bridge is connection and a brace. Braces need to be light and the right strength.
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
Thanks Stephen, appreciate the reply. That's still a bit abstract for me at this early stage - what do you listen/look for that tells you when the bridge is right? Just a matter of learning when it sounds (or feels?) like it's driving the top properly? At this point it sounds like the trebles are a little choked, maybe feels a little stiff compared to my previous guitars. But I didn't try to tweak any of those four. I just polished and played, and they all sounded fairly good from the get go.
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
Do you weigh your bridges and keep notes? Mental or written down? Without knowing what you’re doing and what your guitars sound like it’s difficult or impossible to give advice.
Here’s a couple gameplans, keep track of the weight of your bridges and how thick and flexible they are. Think about the thickness of the area around the rim Of the top. A light bridge with a thinned perimeter creates good guitars. So does thinning the area around the bridge and under it.
If your guitars are ok but not as sensitive as you want, intuitively experiment with thinning them a bit more. Work slowly and incrementally until you find your way. Start with more wood in the guitar and gradually work areas to be lighter and thinner, and pay attention and keep in touch with your feel for your materials.
Build it with your heart, and your observations of really good guitars you can get your hands on. Everyone who builds guitars is basically alone unless you’re from a family that has passed it down, which is small percentage of us. If you’ve made 5 guitars, the best is yet to come. Dream about it, study it, look listen. Be curious, take small chances and see what happens. Guitar strings don’t feed great deal of energy into shaking the top, sometimes the difference between a guitar you have to apologize for and one that blows you away is 4 grams less in bridge weight.
Really I have no idea, we’re all in our own and pretty much your integrity and love of doing it gets you though it.
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana Build it with your heart, and your observations of really good guitars you can get your hands on...Dream about it, study it, look listen. Be curious, take small chances and see what happens.
That's among the finest advice I've had from any maker. As are your practical pointers, many thanks.
I got this bridge down around 15 grams. It still felt reasonably stiff, I took more off the tieblock (maybe too much...) to drop the weight, which allowed me to keep the wings around 4mm, before adding a slight arch.
I'm still very much learning to interpret, but this top seems perhaps a little less dense than what I've had before. I thought it was nearing "E" at 2mm braced -- but it's possible I wasn't using the spectrum analyzer properly. I noted the weights and frequencies of the past two soundboards, but I'm at work and can't remember exactly. Will do a comparison.
Does top frequency before assembly influence/limit how much you're willing to thin, once assembled? I'm going to go ahead and sand a little around the rim and the bridge area...time to experiment!
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RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
You know the whole ‘fine tuneing’ thing is just that.
You’re pretty much locked in once you’ve got your sticks glued down and planed to shape.
I do most of what SF mentioned up thread: thin around the edge, some old guy said nickel thick in the middle dime thin in the edge ;) but that’s a little extreme, not by much though.
I thin the top plate uniformly for starters until I like it, I don’t measure or anything and I feel it’s kinda a trap
Then glue sound bars, I glue my lateral braces to the ribs first like old man T cause, and tap and thin braces till I like it.
Once the box is closed I thin around the lower bought edges like SF mentions, again I don’t measure I’m just looking for a certain tone. But… I do make sure the glued on back isn’t right on a note and thin off needed
Shellac is going to bring up everything a few cents here and there so plan a accordingly.
Once the shellac is done I glue in my bridge: 14-17g for my long 666mm scale Flamenco and 21-24g for my 650mm classical.
Fine tuning? Build a hundred guitars and get back to us with that question. (I’m at 20 and 21 ;)
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
*Snip-a-lot*
Build it with your heart, and your observations of really good guitars you can get your hands on.
Really I have no idea, we’re all in our own and pretty much your integrity and love of doing it gets you though it.
This too.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
The following might upset some folks, but for what it is worth it is true. I have always been impressed with Ricardo Sanchis and sons, highly competitive "factory" guitars. A fellow enthusiast who owned several went to their shop in Valencia and observed the construction techniques. Completed closed box guitars are presented to the main guy who fine tunes them (can't remember but it might have been Ricardo himself), he tapped the top of one, then proceeded to mash the face of it into a BELT SANDER...and repeated this process until satisfied then tossed it on a pile, ready to do the next one. THAT was the horrific process of tuning the tops of those excellent instruments!
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo ...he tapped the top of one, then proceeded to mash the face of it into a BELT SANDER...
Also excellent advice! Kills any mysticism, which is very useful me for at this point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ernandez R Fine tuning? Build a hundred guitars and get back to us with that question.
I am handcuffed to the bank, and so to the day job. If I get anywhere near 100, I'll be lucky...and maybe broke!
Thanks also for your comments. Yep, maybe I spend too much time tapping away with the spectrum analyser. But it seems to promise something concrete to latch onto, at this early stage when that Aha! moment seem so elusive.
Speaking of, I think I have misunderstood the relevance of "notes". When we say "guitar tuned to x..." we're talking the top resonance, AFTER assembly, right? I was paying lots of attention to the top frequency before closing -- but of course all that changes with the rest of the process.
But in terms of keeping the top and back a semitone (or thereabouts) apart -- this is measured when both are thicknessed/braced/finished, BEFORE closing, is that correct?
RE: finetuning -- where to start? (in reply to jamesmulholland)
The Ten Admonitions of Estebanana
1. If thou art not a people person then do not seek to sell guitars you build. Only through the excellence of the guitars you make will you realize sales. If thou art a people person, why are you making guitars? If thou wakest up in the morning disliking or hateth several million people, and are a grouchy person with a disharmonious attitude towards humanity, but like dogs and cats, congratulations, thou couldst be a guitar maker.
2. Thou shalt not make the diagonal closing fan struts at the bottom end of any Torres derivatived bracing system too heavy. The punishment for this is a small death in sonority.
3. The Australian schools of guitar making are blasphemous, a sin. The wages of sin are death by drug overdose. If thou insisteth upon following this path, stock up on Socrates favorite Hemlock beverage.
4. The dealer is both your friend and not your friend simultaneously. If thou shall travel to other dimensions or multiverses remember the basic law of the multiverses - the dealer is your friend and not your friend simultaneously. This is known as The Banana Paradox.
5. Rule 5, No Poofies.
6. Thou shalt not use premade bridges or rosettes. This is a sinners territory. The wages of sin are death by insanity.
7. Thou shalt use hide glue or original titebond, but never titebond ll waterproof for it is elastic and will creep. Thus making you a creep as well.
8. Thou shalt not speak of ‘fine tuning’ but shall seek to make the guitar as close to risking collapse as possible whilst still maintaining structural stability and longevity.
9. Thou shalt not carve clumsily thy heels, but make them elegant and worthy of endless contemplative thought and visual consideration. Thus through this practice thou shalt reach enlightenment.
10. Do not tempt the elders or stain their faces with thine own improvements upon their works. For this is folly and shall call down upon you the wrath of a thousand Khans. Thus the Spanish masters and a select few gringo makers names shall be held sacred. Spurn not the enlightened ones of Iberian birth, and cast out the innovators for they are false prophets and unholy beings.
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