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Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
It's been a while, guitar tinkering,...
Hello Friends,
It's been a long time since I've been here but I still see some familiar names. I hope everyone is well.
A few years ago I was sitting in the park practicing guitar. I remember I was playing along with a you tube video of Gerardo Nunez at half speed as id recently learnt a small section. I felt very relaxed but in the blink of an eye, I suddenly felt something was wrong. There was no pain and I didn't feel anything unusual happen but my M finger on my right hand just stopped responding. Instead my entire hand just locked up whenever I attempted to move it towards the guitar. since then I've spent the last few years trying to find a way to play again. Fortunately my thumb and my left hand were not affected so I'm still able to play some things. Arpeggios and picado are now a long term project and the progress is slow.
During the period of frustration I began tinkering with cheap guitars. Removing backs, Experimenting with bracing patterns and re setting necks on unplayable guitars. I even sanded out and re installed different bracing four times on a single guitar from the outside going in through the sound hole, In an attempt to learn about how bracing effects the sound and playability of a guitar without changing any other variables. And I'm never doing that again. haha
Im no luthier and don't really have many tools but It's been a fun distraction from dealing with the hand. A foro member was kind enough to send me some cedar that he took from fence posts recently and I tried re topping a cheap guitar with it. I made a video of what I did. You can hear how the guitar sounds at the end of the video if you are interested. Luthiers may cringe but it is what it is. haha
Grisha came to Australia for the first time this year. I was lucky enough to see him play live on Tuesday night. What a great guy and amazing player he is. I was able to take my Dad and Grisha's choice of repertoire was perfect as my dad knew every tune he played.
Just for fun, Here is me playing a fun Bulerias falseta by Pepe Fernandez
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
I remember seeing you on YouTube. Crazy to think you got focal dystonia while to a guy has the problem himself (Gerardo has it in his index ). Curious, were you playing with your hands stressed out? It would be good to know what could have caused the problem so others can avoid it.. Also hope you get to play again one day !
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Hello Kris Good to see you here again. Sorry to hear about your hand, I wish you well in your recovery. (14 years ago I developed a focal dystonia associated with the M finger of my right hand. It took time and patient perseverance, but it is much better now.)
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
well, it has been many years now since we discussed that strange, not well understood topic. I still think it is linked to performance anxiety, somewhat, and every now and then I feel that weird weak feeling, and it is usually when I run out of vitamin D supplements. I start taking them and then the hand is back to normal, so anybody that has this issue should at least try that. I was diagnosed in my 30s as deficient and they said because as a musician I work nights and don't get sun. They do a huge regime like 14,000 or something for a week and then the normal 2000 daily supplements. As I said, I do notice issues when I run out...it feels like weaker like when you have a hang over or something. But for me it goes away.
Another issue for guitar players is frozen shoulder. I had that from throwing wet tennis balls with the dogs, and it was BAD news. The squeeze of the capsule in your shoulder as auto immune response trickles down to elbow and wrist and ultimately fingers. I often wonder if this issue with dystonia isn't related to adhesive capsulitis. I am checking my mobility range constantly.
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I still think it is linked to performance anxiety, somewhat
Yes. Best current research shows psychological factors may be relevant for some, though not for all musicians experiencing focal dystonia.
There are multi-factoral drivers. Problems like adhesive capsulitis could have an impact but not directly due to the physiology, but in the same way that any other shoulder or body movement issue could be a factor.
Below image is a summary of risk factors from a recent literature review. Kris this paper is reasonably easy to read for a layperson and may give you some insight to help your recovery. I can send you a copy if you can't access the full paper online.
"...psychological predisposing factors such as state and trait anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsive-disorder (OCD), perfectionism, social phobia and specific phobias, neuroticism, emotional instability, low self-efficacy, apathy, catastrophization, personality issues, stigma, stress, fear."
"Ioannou and Altenmuller (2014)13 studied the personality profile of focal dystonia in musicians and recognized two different subgroups. The first (called “high psychological effects”) represents those participants who exhibit higher levels of anxiety, perfectionism and negative coping strategies whereas the second (called “low psychological effects”) represents an opposite psychological profile.13 Surprisingly, the FD musicians distributed equally into the different subgroups, while the healthy musicians, as expected, were more present in the low psychological effects group. This indicates the existence of two different psychological types of FD in musicians and it must be taken into consideration when working on prevention."
Comoletti S, Mercogliano C. Focal dystonia in musicians, a literature review. J Hand Ther. 2024 Oct-Dec;37(4):616-624. doi: 10.1016/j.jht.2024.02.011. Epub 2024 Jun 28. PMID: 38942654. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38942654/
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Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Hi Metal head!
Hmmm? It's hard to know if I was stressing my hands out. I was ironically actually working on relaxing between movements when it happened. haha
Hey OrsonW! Great to see you still here! I appreciate your well wishes and thoughtful replies. Since developing the issue I have searched extensively online looking into dystonia. Thank you for the link.
For me it has been a long process of trying to find out how my body and mind changed suddenly. It was pretty scary to pick up the guitar and find that it was no longer familiar. Initially the effects were really bad. I could not sequence any arpeggios, and even alternating my I M fingers required me to clench P and I into what felt like a tight fist. Yet there was no pain and my hand worked completely normally away from the guitar. Over the last three years I have unraveled a lot of those symptoms and have now reached a point where I have much more control over the hand again. It feels like putting pieces of a puzzle together and making little discoveries along the way. It actually took me about 2 years to even discover that my M finger was not responding. I had to unravel a lot to get to there.
It's nice to know that you worked through your issue and came out the other side. That encourages me to keep going.
Hey Ricardo! Thank you for your reply. Nice to hear from you. As far as Im aware my vitamin D levels are pretty good. I live in Brisbane and work outdoors where the sun gets pretty intense but it's worth checking. To be honest I have kind of reached a point where I try not to focus on Focal Dystonia to much and prefer to just approach the guitar from a neutral position and move forward. I have made the best progress with that frame of mind.
Id rather Talk about the thumping bases on my $10 guitar re top haha
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Hi KMM,
I find your playing excellent, your pulgar has certainly improved since your M finger issue.
I always think of Django, who despite, or better put, because of his handicap changed guitar playing for ever, with his musical imagination breaking through the physical handicap.
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Hi Silddx, Thanks mate👍 I’m glad you felt inspired. The new guitar projects are fun and they definitely provide inspiration once I get to play them.
Hey Ramzi, That is a very cool interview and I can relate to everything he says. I like the way he demonstrates and talks about practical solutions. I’ve discovered a lot of word salad grifters in the focal dystonia field.
Mecmachin, whoops, I meant to write Paco not Pepe. I like both players though. Thank you for your words. I agree regarding working with what I can do. I’m lucky I can still play rhythm and play with my thumb for now. Gerardo is a massive inspiration the way he just keeps playing and writing ideas. It’s a lesson to all of us not to take things for granted. We may never reach the levels of the greats but appreciating and enjoying our current achievements on the guitar should never be overlooked.
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Recently another guy from Australia posted on this forum (Florian), after years, but didn't comd back. Not sure if you know him, but I think I am not aware about the size of your country. Just sent you a PM regarding Paco Fernandez.
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Mecmachin, I met Florian once many years ago when I went to Adelaide. I live in a different state so we don’t get to catch up.
Sliddx, thanks for the interesting video. I shared it on the musicians with focal dystonia page on facebook. I’m definitely going to try with some gloves and see what happens? 👍
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to silddx)
the effort/stress that we put our hands/arm for quite some time is tremendous.
Days ago , i played so many repeticion on bulerias for quite some time (hours) , and before that i was allready training some solea and stuff. Day after i couldnt grab my right hand... and some sore ligments/muscles on the arm. The left wasnt that severe. Had to rest for 2/3 days. This only happened once , the reason was effort , i played faster repetions for hours , and i could do way more effort/strenght and i didnt. Key is to control and or mitigate inflamation.
I seriously doubt that this couldnt happen to full time student or professional (if you play train faster) for hours. Maybe the gloves improve veigns dilatation or something and also keeps hand warmer..
Maybe it helps to put hands on warmer water before start to play , and after an extra effort playing put the hands on cold water or ice for quite some time. I think it is worth a try..
You know how muscle grows right? fibre destrution -----» inflamation----» recovery If you stop inflamation , you stop muscle growing , well it will grow but not full potential , but thats not the issue , the issue here is inflamation. Inflamation its the reason for almost the bad things that happen to our body
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
You know how muscle grows right? fibre destrution -----» inflamation----» recovery
except for the lower palm (thumb) there are no muscles in or around the fingers.
The reason the gloves work is the touch sensitivity. Gerardo can do picado (apoyando) but not arpegio (tirando) with the damaged finger. I feel his problem is unusual because he does not "lock up" the other fingers they work fine, and he does arpegio with m and a which is weird for me. He can't strum with index, again, as it floats and gets "lost" without a touch reference.
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to silddx)
its all related , spinal cord , neuro transmissors etc etc Inflamation , nerves damage , neuro damage, trauma etc Orsonw putted a nice picture.
I would do a neuro check up exam. It would help to know previous reactions on past days of the episode , like , rash, fever, chills, fatigue, headache, swollen lymph nodes, muscle and joint aches etc
Either way i would try Glutamine + Taurine and cut all inflamatory stuff , like processed sugar , stress , digestions than requires more effort, mould , dairy like fat cheese etc And very important , no stress , and at least a 8h routine sleep.
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
I am really amazed by the results I get wearing latex gloves. It really elevates some of the symptoms and I can suddenly do things that I have been unable to do for years. I managed to get some suitable gloves today and as strange as it may seem,my second finger immediately started responding again. I then decided that cut out the finger tips for both sound quality and to see if the finger stopped responding again. Although the hand felt strange the second finger continued to respond far more naturally than without them, so it appears that the mere gloves surrounding the fingers is enough to trick the brain somehow? It’s very strange and I will see if the positive effects continue over the next few days?
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
so it appears that the mere gloves surrounding the fingers is enough to trick the brain somehow? It’s very strange and I will see if the positive effects continue over the next few days?
Yes this is a typical response. MFD is a sensorimotor problem. Using novel sensory input is a fundamental component of the recovery process. If the effect of gloves is strange and amazing to you I suggest reading the article I linked to help you make sense of it. I suggest seeking some professional help to learn how you can use this in your recovery. Searching for answers on the internet is problematic because anyone can and will offer their uninformed and erroneous advice.
Comoletti S, Mercogliano C. Focal dystonia in musicians, a literature review. J Hand Ther. 2024 Oct-Dec;37(4):616-624. doi: 10.1016/j.jht.2024.02.011. Epub 2024 Jun 28. PMID: 38942654. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38942654/
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Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: It's been a while, guitar tinker... (in reply to KMMI77)
Hey Orsonw,
I have downloaded and read through the article you shared a few times. There is a lot to take in so I will continue to revisit it.
The gloves offer an interesting perspective for me. They do not correct the issue at all, but they allow me to push through what normally results in unresponsiveness, tension and cramping up. It is interesting that they allow me to distinguish between the sensations of pushing through an incorrect movement and experiencing the fingers moving in a way that doesn’t require pushing through.
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They do a huge regime like 14,000 or something for a week and then the normal 2000 daily supplements. As I said, I do notice issues when I run out...it feels like weaker like when you have a hang over or something. But for me it goes away. 
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