Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
Ancient Greek Music Evidence
So a while back I posted the Phrygian Fetish Orientalism video, pointing out this all too pervasive thing of the Phrygian scale being decidedly "arabic" and whenever it appears it MISREPRESENTS what Arabic music actually is. Here it was for review:
I was checking up on the ancient greek music and it turns out they have recently (as of only a few years ago before the pandemic) had some major break throughs with interpreting the ancient evidence (we are talking like 600 bc etc.) of songs that included musical notation and rhythms. Considering the Phrygian fetish thing mentioned earlier, it does in fact seem that the phrygian melodies aka "mode" was very much preferred by the ancient greeks. I have to point out the specifics and nuance are NOT necessarily what people think about it. For example the hi jazz thing of the augmented 2nd is avoided in many of those melodies. They like to skip up a 4th while leaning on the minor seconds. Also the concept of the modal difference are quite in line with the Gregorian concept of authentic vs plagal modes melodically. Meaning that "mixolydian" song the girl sings leans on the B and C BELOW the tonic E, as it sounds relative to the instrument and the projection of the song. ALSO, like musica vera vs ficta, the idea of the Bb and B natural functioning in tandem is at work (not including the microtone inflection as this researcher points out are passing notes, unlike in Indian or Arabic music today where they are emphasized relative to tonic drones). IN context to what I described above, the E Phrygian sound of the music that emphasized the B-C below the tonic, you eventually hear the F# above it, killing what we today think of as proper "phrygian", but making it a blend of E minor and E Phrygian.
Anyway how does any of this relate? Well, to me it becomes crystal clear that the phrygian "sound" of Orientalism is coming from surviving GREEK influence in the region, negating the Arabic to be honest. Meaning the Phrygian fetish of the west is thanks to GREEK influence on arabic music and western music alike. People are continually mis attributing the sound to Middle East which is in fact mediterranean, hence ignoring the richness (and uniqueness) of the Arabic repertoire which deserved to have their Phrygian sounding music properly contextualized.
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
I love how researchers are scratching away at the clues and seeing what can be seen about Ancient Greek music. I imagined that I had been keeping up with developments in the revival of the aulos and understanding of its musical context but I had missed this.
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to JasonM)
you can find ancient greek , by the cult band Rotting Christ... Its real , they colaborate often with ancient greek professors/schollars (and they are few)
If anyone have curiosity , close to the end of the song you can hear bagpipes , that belongs also to Greek Folk , and not only by the Celtics...as many say..
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
Back on topic, my same funny guy with the Phrygian fetish video has this one that explains the issue with Greek music, and certainly the Phrygian thing is related. I wish someone could do this type of video for Spain. A similar situation where the Arab occupation is expected superficially to have left its music influence (just like the BS ottoman mark on the Greek music), when in fact, the Andalusian music had its own strong identity without needing it as an explanation (as appears in 1800s). But when we look to specifics of Arabic music to be found in Flamenco, we are left only with that vocal inflection and the phrygian fake fetish hi jazz thing again.
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
I really like this thread and not because I'm Greek..
Plato, the maybe known Greek philosopher, at least in Greece everyone knows him, in his Politeia book, discussing the musical scales that should be used in the ideal state says the following, simplified to keep it less wordy:
"The Doric is recognised as appropriate because it imitates the tone of voice of the courageous man, who faces the blows of life unwaveringly, and the Phrygian because it imitates the measured, prudent man who proceeds to peaceful actions of his own will."
Note here that Gregorian modes are not the same in name as the ancient Greek ones. So the courageous dorian is actually what we might call phrygian today and the peaceful phrygian is our dorian.
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to AndresK)
here is another interesting video. The oldest musical piece is ca 1400 bc Mesopotamian Hurrian hymns. While the interpretations differ in the details, the basic thing seems the diatonic modes (not microtonal but basic 5 or 7 note scale like we use in the West, equal tempered or not) are much older than the Greek genres that add microtones and interesting scales. Same guy at 28:31, admitting that he would love it if the Middle East music was older, more fundamental etc., but it simply is based on the Greek system, which itself seems to have been an expansion of the basic diatonic system Taylor Swift is using.
Here are the 4 hymn interpretations done between 1974 and 2005. I am leaning toward the 3rd version as the double stops sound more like a misinterpretation of linear intervals of a melody rather than simultaneous intervals. (Like the Greek wind instrument does with the two horns makes musical sense, but this thing here on a lyre is probably not correct). The second version might be better, but it does not have any sort of musical logic going on like number 3 seems to have. I would have to really dive in to inform myself on how they are interpreting this because they are wildly different. I know it is mainly because they don’t know how to align text to the musical notation (unlike the Greek examples I showed up top that were clear).
Dumbril seems to have made an archived video where he has an Arabic lady sing it, and she is (compared to the piano which I assume is based on the score made), is adding sharps, creating the Arabic “hi jazz” thing, which to my ear is adding an enormous bias if the are not interpreting the source with that interval of aug. 2nd.
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
Of course , migration from the people of LEVANTE to "greece" , others islands and "Italy" etc..even in "spain" via Cadiz , remember the Zambra of Nino Miguel "Zambra of Moro Tharsis" and Phoenicians
Our Greek friend maybe can explore more , from this Cadiz side that were founded by the phoenicians and then ocupied by the greeks , first reference of Cadiz by Estrabo.
Tartessos (Spanish: Tartesos) is, as defined by archaeological discoveries,[1] a historical civilization settled in the southern Iberian Peninsula characterized by its mixture of local Paleohispanic and Phoenician traits. It had a writing system, identified as Tartessian, that includes some 97 inscriptions in a Tartessian language.
In the historical records, Tartessos (Ancient Greek: Ταρτησσός) appears as a semi-mythical or legendary harbor city and the surrounding culture on the south coast of the Iberian Peninsula (in modern Andalusia, Spain), at the mouth of the Guadalquivir.[2] It appears in sources from Greece and the Near East starting during the first millennium BC. Herodotus, for example, describes it as beyond the Pillars of Hercules.[3] Roman authors tend to echo the earlier Greek sources, but from around the end of the millennium there are indications that the name Tartessos had fallen out of use and the city may have been lost to flooding, although several authors attempt to identify it with cities of other names in the area.[4]
The Tartessians were rich in metals. In the fourth century BC the historian Ephorus describes "a very prosperous market called Tartessos, with much tin carried by river, as well as gold and copper from Celtic lands".[4] Trade in tin was very lucrative in the Bronze Age, since it is an essential component of bronze and is comparatively rare. Herodotus refers to a king of Tartessos, Arganthonios, presumably named for his wealth in silver. Herodotus also says that Arganthonios welcomed the first Greeks to reach Iberia, which was a ship carrying the Phocaeans from Asia Minor.
Pausanias wrote that Myron, the tyrant of Sicyon, built a treasury, which was called the treasury of the Sicyonians, to commemorate a victory in the chariot race at the Olympic games. In the treasury, he made two chambers with two different styles, one Doric and one Ionic, with bronze.[clarification needed] The Eleans said that the bronze was Tartessian.[5][6]
The people from Tartessos became important trading partners of the Phoenicians, whose presence in Iberia dates from the eighth century BC and who nearby built a harbor of their own, Gadir (Ancient Greek: Γάδειρα, Latin: Gades, present-day Cádiz).
Location
Tartessos location on the Iberian Peninsula
Cancho Roano archaeological site located in Zalamea de la Serena, Extremadura Several early sources, such as Aristotle, refer to Tartessos as a river. Aristotle claims that it rises from the Pyrene Mountain (generally accepted by modern scholars as the Pyrenees) and flows out to sea outside the Pillars of Hercules, the modern Strait of Gibraltar.[4] No such river traverses the Iberian Peninsula.
According to the fourth century BC Greek geographer and explorer Pytheas, quoted by Strabo in the first century AD, the ancestral homeland of the Turduli was located north of Turdetania, the region where the kingdom of Tartessos was located in the Baetis River valley (the present-day Guadalquivir valley) in southern Spain.[7][8]
Pausanias, writing in the second century AD, identified the river and gave details of the location of the city:
They say that Tartessus is a river in the land of the Iberians, running down into the sea by two mouths and that between these two mouths lies a city of the same name. The river, which is the largest in Iberia and tidal, those of a later day called Baetis and there are some who think that Tartessus was the ancient name of Carpia, a city of the Iberians.[9]
The river known in his day as the Baetis is now the Guadalquivir. Thus, Tartessos may be buried, Schulten thought, under the shifting wetlands. The river delta has gradually been blocked by a sandbar that stretches from the mouth of the Rio Tinto, near Palos de la Frontera to Almonte, the riverbank that is opposite Sanlúcar de Barrameda. The area is now protected as the Parque Nacional de Doñana.[10]
In the first century AD, Pliny the Elder[11] incorrectly identified the city of Carteia as the Tartessos mentioned in Greek sources while Strabo just commented.[clarification needed] [12] Carteia is identified as El Rocadillo, near S. Roque, Province of Cádiz, some distance away from the Guadalquivir.[13] In the second century AD, Appian thought that Karpessos (Carpia) was previously known as Tartessos.[4]
The discoveries published by Adolf Schulten in 1922 [14] first drew attention to Tartessos and shifted its study from classical philologists and antiquarians to investigations based on archaeology,[15] although attempts at localizing a capital for what was conceived as a complicated culture in the nature of a centrally controlled kingdom ancestral to Spain were inconclusively debated. Subsequent discoveries were widely reported: in September 1923 archaeologists discovered a Phoenician necropolis in which human remains were unearthed and stones found with illegible characters. It may have been colonized by the Phoenicians for trade because of its richness in metals.[16]
A later generation turned instead to identifying and localizing "orientalizing" (eastern Mediterranean) features of the Tartessian material culture within the broader Mediterranean horizon of an "Orientalizing period" recognizable in the Aegean and Etruria.
Treasure of El Carambolo, exhibited in the Archaeological Museum of Seville J. M. Luzón was the first to identify Tartessos with modern Huelva,[17] based on discoveries made in the preceding decades. Since the discovery in September 1958 of the rich gold treasure of El Carambolo in Camas, three kilometres west of Seville,[18] and of hundreds of artefacts in the necropolis at La Joya, Huelva,[19] archaeological surveys have been integrated with philological and literary surveys and the broader picture of the Iron Age in the Mediterranean basin to provide a more informed view of the supposed Tartessian culture on the ground, concentrated in western Andalusia, Extremadura, and in southern Portugal from the Algarve to the Vinalopó River in Alicante.[20]
Turuñuelo archaeological site Main article: Turuñuelo
Sculpture found at the site of Turunuelo, featuring the earrings characteristic of a Tartessian goldsmith's work. Significant discoveries were made at Turuñuelo archeological site in Guareña, where excavation began in 2015. The site was declared bien de interés cultural (National heritage site) in May 2022.[21][22]
Two ornate stone busts, featuring details of jewelry and hairstyles which are thought to be the first facial representations of the Tartessian goddesses were discovered in 2023.[23][24] These sculptures are somewhat similar to the Lady of Elche sculpture, which was dated between the 5th and 4th centuries BC, but are considerably earlier. Fragments of at least three other busts have also been recovered. One of them is attributed to a warrior because part of his helmet is preserved.
In this region of southern Spain, the Tartessian culture was born around the 9th century B.C. as a result of hybridization between the Phoenician settlers and the local inhabitants. Scholars refer to the Tartessian culture as "a hybrid archaeological culture".[25]
Metallurgy Alluvial tin was panned in Tartessian streams from an early date. The spread of a silver standard in Assyria increased its attractiveness (the tribute from Phoenician cities was assessed in silver). The invention of coinage in the seventh century BC spurred the search for bronze and silver as well. Henceforth trade connections, formerly largely in elite goods, assumed an increasingly broad economic role. By the Late Bronze Age, silver extraction in Huelva Province reached industrial proportions. Pre-Roman silver slag is found in the Tartessian cities of Huelva Province. Cypriot and Phoenician metalworkers produced 15 million tons of pyrometallurgical residues at the vast dumps of Riotinto. Mining and smelting preceded the arrival, from the eighth century BC onward, of Phoenicians [26] and then Greeks, who provided a stimulating wider market and whose influence sparked an "orientalizing" phase in Tartessian material culture (c. 750–550 BC) before Tartessian culture was superseded by the Classic Iberian culture.
"Tartessic" artefacts linked with the Tartessos culture have been found, and many archaeologists now associate the "lost" city with Huelva. In excavations on spatially restricted sites in the center of modern Huelva, sherds of elite painted Greek ceramics of the first half of the sixth century BC have been recovered. Huelva contains the largest accumulation of imported elite goods and must have been an important Tartessian center. Medellín, on the Guadiana River, revealed an important necropolis.
Bronce Carriazo (625-525 BC), found near Seville Elements specific to Tartessian culture are the Late Bronze Age fully evolved pattern-burnished wares and geometrically banded and patterns "Carambolo" wares, from the ninth to the sixth centuries BC; an "Early Orientalizing" phase with the first eastern Mediterranean imports, beginning circa 750 BC; a "Late Orientalizing" phase with the finest bronze casting and goldsmith work; gray ware turned on the fast potter's wheel, local imitations of imported Phoenician red-slip wares.
Characteristic Tartessian bronzes include pear-shaped jugs, often associated in burials, with shallow dish-shaped braziers having loop handles, incense-burners with floral motifs, fibulas, both elbowed and double-spring types, and belt buckles.
No pre-colonial necropolis sites have been identified. The change from a late Bronze Age pattern of circular or oval huts scattered on a village site to rectangular houses with dry-stone foundations and plastered wattle and daub walls took place during the seventh and sixth centuries BC, in settlements with planned layouts that succeeded one another on the same site.
At Cástulo (Jaén), a mosaic of river pebbles from the end of the sixth century BC is the earliest mosaic in Western Europe.[citation needed] Most sites were inexplicably abandoned in the fifth century BC.
Tartessic occupation sites of the Late Bronze Age that were not particularly complex: "a domestic mode of production seems to have predominated" is one mainstream assessment.[27] An earlier generation of archaeologists and historians took a normative approach to the primitive Tartessian adoption of Punic styles and techniques, as of a less-developed culture adopting better, more highly evolved cultural traits, and finding Eastern parallels for Early Iron Age material culture in the Tartessian sites. A later generation has been more concerned with the process through which local institutions evolved.[28]
Candelabra of Lebrija, found in Lebrija The emergence of new archaeological finds in the city of Huelva is prompting the revision of these traditional views. Just in two adjacent lots adding up to 2,150 sq. m. between Las Monjas Square and Mendez Nuñez Street, some 90,000 ceramic fragments of indigenous, Phoenician, and Greek imported wares were exhumed, out of which 8,009 allowed scope for a type identification. This pottery, dated from the tenth to the early eighth centuries BC predates finds from other Phoenician colonies; together with remnants of numerous activities, the Huelva discoveries reveal a substantial industrial and commercial emporion on this site lasting several centuries. Similar finds in other parts of the city make it possible to estimate the protohistoric habitat of Huelva at some 20 hectares, large for a site in the Iberian Peninsula during that period.[29]
Calibrated carbon-14 dating carried out by University of Groningen on associated cattle bones as well as dating based on ceramic samples permit a chronology of several centuries through the state of the art of craft and industry since the tenth century BC, as follows: pottery (bowls, plates, craters, vases, amphorae, etc.), melting pots, casting nozzles, weights, finely worked pieces of wood, ship parts, bovid skulls, pendants, fibulae, anklebones, agate, ivory –with the only workshop of the period so far proven in the west-, gold, silver, etc.
The existence of foreign produce and materials together with local ones suggests that the old Huelva harbor was a major hub for the reception, manufacturing, and shipping of diverse products of different and distant origin. The analysis of written sources and the products exhumed, including inscriptions and thousands of Greek ceramics, some of which are works of excellent quality by known potters and painters, has led some scholars to suggest that this habitat can be identified not only with Tarshish mentioned in the Bible, in the Assyrian stele of Esarhaddon, and perhaps in the Phoenician inscription of the Nora Stone, but also with the Tartessos of Greek sources –interpreting the Tartessus river as equivalent to the present-day Tinto River and the Ligustine Lake to the joint estuary of the Odiel and Tinto rivers flowing west and east of the Huelva Peninsula.[30][31][32]
Religion There is very little data but it is assumed that as with other Mediterranean peoples, the religion was polytheistic. It is believed that Tartessians worshiped the goddess Astarte or Potnia and the masculine divinity Baal or Melkart, as a result of the Phoenician acculturation. Sanctuaries inspired by Phoenician architecture have been found in the deposit of Castulo (Linares, Jaén) and in the vicinity of Carmona. Several images of Phoenician deities have been found in Cádiz, Huelva, and Sevilla.[33]
Language
Iberia circa 300 BC, before the Carthaginian conquest; residual Tartessian language is depicted in the southwest
The Tartessian Fonte Velha inscription found in Bensafrim, Lagos, Southern Portugal The Tartessian language is an extinct pre-Roman language once spoken in southern Iberia. The oldest known indigenous texts of Iberia, dated from the seventh to sixth centuries BC, are written in Tartessian. The inscriptions are written in a semi-syllabic writing system called the Southwest script; they were found in the general area in which Tartessos was located and in surrounding areas of influence. Tartessian language texts were found in Southwestern Spain and Southern Portugal (namely in the Conii, Cempsi, Sefes, and Celtici areas of the Algarve and southern Alentejo).
Possible identification as "Tarshish" or "Atlantis" Since the classicists of the early twentieth century, biblical archaeologists often identify the place-name Tarshish in the Hebrew Bible with Tartessos, although others connect Tarshish to Tarsus in Anatolia or other places as far as India. Tarshish, like Tartessos, is associated with extensive mineral wealth (Iberian Pyrite Belt).
In 1922, Adolf Schulten gave currency to a view of Tartessos that made it the Western, and wholly European source of the legend of Atlantis.[34] A more serious review, by W. A. Oldfather, appeared in American Journal of Philology.[35] Both Atlantis and Tartessos were believed to have been advanced societies that collapsed when their cities were lost beneath the waves; supposed further similarities with the legendary society make a connection seem feasible, although virtually nothing is known of Tartessos, not even its precise site. Other Tartessian enthusiasts imagine it as a contemporary of Atlantis, with which it might have traded.[citation needed]
In 2011, a team led by Richard Freund claimed to have found strong evidence for the location in Doñana National Park based on underground and underwater surveys and the interpretation of the archaeological site Cancho Roano[36] as "memorial cities" rebuilt in the image of Atlantis. [37] Spanish scientists have dismissed Freund's claims claiming that he was sensationalising their work. The anthropologist Juan Villarías-Robles, who works with the Spanish National Research Council, said "Richard Freund was a newcomer to our project and appeared to be involved in his own very controversial issue concerning King Solomon's search for ivory and gold in Tartessos, the well-documented settlement in the Doñana area established in the first millennium BC" and described his claims as 'fanciful'.[38]
Simcha Jacobovici, involved in the production of a documentary on Freund's work for the National Geographic Channel, stated that the biblical Tarshish (which he believes is the same as Tartessos) was Atlantis, and that "Atlantis was hiding in the Tanach", although this is heavily disputed by most archeologists involved in the project. The enigmatic Lady of Elx, an ancient bust of a woman found in southeastern Spain, has been tied with Atlantis and Tartessos,[citation needed] although the statue displays clear signs of being manufactured by later Iberian cultures.
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
remember the Zambra of Nino Miguel "Zambra of Moro Tharsis" and Phoenicians
The thing is, Spaniards themselves have been informed that their music is “oriental” by design such that in the 1970s, flamenco artists actively engaged with Arabic song:
As I explained earlier this “oriental music bias” the west has in general is an issue I am trying to cut through. 1838 observation of Estebañez Calderon claimed “flamenco” song and dance has the “Arabic trunk” to differ from the basic Andaluz or Colonial American influenced songs. Same exact time frame and people were observed by Richard Ford who equated the dancers to INDIA not Arabic influence. This is the basic “Oriental stereo type”, that misleads not only origin, but FUNCTION of the cante and guitar (nuts and bolts as I call it). The Oriental bias seems to be coming from Greek origin and influence, miss interpretation of THAT being Middle Eastern rather than Mediterranean, however, it is clear to me (more so over time till now) the flamenco cante and guitar is neither Greek, Arabic, Indian, etc., but uses a system extremely more “western Renaissance” related.
PS. Thanks for the big cut and paste job, next time link the source so I can scan for music related stuff, which was absent.
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
well , i think the Alzapua dont help your theory, just mess up things more?
Why is that? You feel it has to do with Arabic oud playing? As in a direct influence from oud playing toward Spanish guitar technique? I have always felt it is more like a type of rasgueado, with wrist mechanic etc., coupled with chord voicing, as a substitute for the older p-p-i mechanism for triplets. But there is the “nature” of these instruments vs the music you play on them.
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
That's a long and interesting read. Don't know much about the subject. Greek modes were briefly mentioned in the lessons I received in music history. I might be wrong (it's 40 years ago) but if I remember well the old (gregorian) church modes (were every natural note abcdefg can be the start of a mode like abc, bcd, cde, efg etc in which efg became known as phrygian) were based on ancient Greeg modes using similar names like aeolisch, mixolidisch, phrygian etc. However a mistake was made when translating the Greeg modes to church modes because if I remember well they overlooked that the Greeg modes/intervals had to be read backwards. So despite shared names in both systems the interval sequence atteced to those names are different. So the interval sequence efg.... that became known as phygian in the church modes was also known in the Greeg modes but under a different name and in turn the greeg mode known as phrygian had different intervals than the one that became known as phrygian in the church modes.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
That's a long and interesting read. Don't know much about the subject. Greek modi were briefly mentioned in the lessons I received in music history. I might be wrong (it's 40 years ago) but if I remember well the old (gregorian) church modi (were every root note abcdefg can be the start of a mode like abc, bcd, cde, efg etc in which efg became known as frygian) were based on ancient Greeg modes using similar names like aeolisch, mixolidisch, frygian etc. However a mistake was made when translating the Greeg modi to church modi because if I remember well they overlooked that the Greeg modi/intervals had to be read backwards. So despite shared names in both systems the note sequence atteced to those names are different. So the interval sequence efg.... that became known as frygian in the church modi was also known in the Greeg modi but under a different name and in turn the greeg modus known as frygian had different intervals as the one that became known as frygian in the church modi.
I understood the same myself for many years. I preferred the modern jazz Rick Beato concept of modes for most of my career…that being you have to adhere to a specific scale to evoke a “mode” otherwise an accidental is changing the mode. For example all naturals over an F drone or chord is F lydian, but if you play an Eb, suddenly you are doing Lydian Dominant aka, mode 4 of C melodic minor. Therefore “Hijaz” Makkam is a mode that maps to the Phrygian Dominant. All that thing with “mode” is nuanced and therefore this analogy to Gregorian chant as well is simply WRONG, and deserves clarification. I was very surprised about this historical thing about “Modes” in the renaissance (see linked video), and was forced to dive deep into the subject. It is all misleading but I have finally sliced through all this nuance to get a clear picture of what is going on. The Gregorian thing goes back to pope Gregory who had a “vision” and established some melodies. Not sure who assigned the Greek attributions to these melodies but this is totally ARBITRARY! What matter is the nature of melody itself.
More likely than the intervalic miss understanding (really we are forced to believe someone could translate this complex math subject but not realize ascending from descending??? Seriously??? ), is due to attempts at translating the PHILOSOPHY of music which, outside of mathematics of intervalic relationships, was SUBJECTIVE FEELING that a mode or melody gives us. This thing of happy sad triumphant etc., as per the Ionian people vs Phrygian or Dorian people, is almost impossible to discern since it is SUBJECTIVE. There is the passage about it in Bermudo’s 1549 treatise that includes detail on vihuela etc., and this Greek philosophy and “Humanism” was a big thing during the Renaissance. They were trying to figure it out and making erroneous interpretations. So if we can keep the names arbitrary and practically meaningless we can look at the MUSIC and understand the thinking.
Simply put there were 4 authentic modes only, and this probably based on the limited baritone vocal range of Catholic priests that would chant this stuff (hardly singing in my mind, more like liturgical rapping LOL). D, E, F and G. That is IT. The scope of all the music and modes would land on one of those and therefore an entire “song” would be based on one of those. The musica Vera or true music are the natural notes as we think of them today (white keys of a piano), PLUS THE Bb, which was allowed or “necessary” in some instances. So a melody that runs within an octave or above of D is mode 1. (Dorian but call it whatever you want they used in Spain “primero tono”, not “Doric” or other Greek stuff). Vast majority of music minded folks used “mode one” as the concept. Regardless if you use B natural, Bb, or NEITHER in your melody. Other accidental notes might be used called “ficta”, any other black keys of a piano than the Bb. If the melody was lower in range, such that you had to arrive at the final D from BELOW, this is called a “Plagal mode” of that D note (re it was called), and THIS would be called MODE 2 (hypodorian, under the dorian). Basically as a concept of “tonality” they were thought to be the same but today we would think two different keys here. Spaniard used “secundo tono”, and the famous Romanesca/folia etc is based on this (think of G minor song that ends on D major chord like a half cadence). As a good example Mudarra has his primero tono example with final on the open 4th course (meaning it seems his vihuela was tuned very flat of normal folk vihuela capo 3, so like a modern guitar pitch with G string tuned to F#). The thing is literally in D minor as we think with typical por medio chords today, but with final chord being on D major (Picardy 3rd). He called his little etudes that explain his personal concept of the tonos, “Tientos”. And indirectly this style of polyphony being used and taught in this type of vihuela book is based on Flemish polyphony. So there is your “flamenco Tientos”. By contrast Fuenllana (sorry I meant Narvaez, fuenllana does the same as Mudarra) had primero tono examples in B minor, suggesting his instrument was tuned up (capo 3 if you like).
This concept continues for the other authentic modes with the over-under range of notes landing on the E (modes 3,4) F (5,6), and G (7,8). Using a Gregorian chant melody (only priests knew these melodies typically, so you see lots of priests with vihuelas 😂) was called “canto llano”, or plainchant melody, and a popular Franco-Flemish melody (chanson, madrigal, villancico, or Flemish drinking songs LOL) would be thought of as organum (two or more voice polyphony) called “canto de organo”. A plainchant or popular theme was treated like our cante jondo, and the counter voices make “chords” to punctuate the lines of text (like guitar tonos for the cante). Pretty much all the Renaissance music is based on this thing I have described. The E modes only sound more like modern flamenco due to the final “mi mode” cadences, but honestly even things like the hypomixolian (mode 8) map to weird cante minero type melodies and chords, vaguely major or mixolydian sounding.
It is now amusing to me to see the relation of modern blues and jazz, flamenco, etc., adhering to this basic modal system of the Renaissance but they have to jump through hoops to related it major or minor key of common practice era theory. (Like Adam Kneely couldn’t explain hey joe by Jimi Hendricks using theory LOL).
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
the guy knows literally every single thing lol
I wish. The more I investigate the more I realize how in the dark I have been most of my life. The issue for me is trying to be concise is VERY hard for me.
So you guys know I am not lying about the Tientos, here is a screen shot (Mudarra, 1546), the tab is upside down (top line is 6 string, bottom line, first string), tuning like Rondeña with 3rd string at F#, and you see those chords top line are D (power chord but implied minor), Gm7, C, D minor barre, Gm, A major. Basic por medio, not unlike our modern Tiento. If you can read notation, the author of this paper transposed up from Dm to F minor (like capo 3), but the Db is missing because they want us to pretend F dorian is the true pitch and concept. I personally take issue with that, but for now, you can see in the alto voice in the treble clef (down stem notes underlined in red) the famous descending tetra chord or Andalusian cadence as an internal melody going F- F-Eb-(C)-Db-C. Voicing leading rules prevent parallel 5th octaves etc, so we see more colorful harmony decorating that thing (yet just like our familiar Tiento/tango chords). It continues on in F minor but hopefully y’all get the point I am making, that this is not “Arabic” it is basic Spanish stuff and normal all over the Renaissance, not specific to Andalucia necessarily.
After the opening statement of D minor there, it modulates to D dorian via A minor sounding stuff, and then I circle the final cadence A major-D minor. After that he does a melodic “tag” descending in D minor but it modulates to parallel major with a big plagal cadence ending (G-D major, that X is 10th fret).
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
Here is Fuenllana doing the same darn thing, but more complex and a nice fat F major chord. His resolves to A major on the start of the second line (lovely augmented chord resolves). He also uses a plagal ending tag to D major.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
and about the history of Alzapua?
wheres that? i just found something regarding montoya , nothing else before montoya , or even something specific about montoya , like why he started doing it for an example.
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
and about the history of Alzapua?
wheres that? i just found something regarding montoya , nothing else before montoya , or even something specific about montoya , like why he started doing it for an example.
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Ricardo)
Tying this to the other thread, alzar means to lift and pua is a "pick/plectrum." What would be necessary to demonstrate an Arabic influence? If a guitarist has Morisco in his lineage and is aware of oud practices, would that be enough to claim Arabic/Moorish origin? What if Montoya got the idea only by observing oud players? What if an oud player taught the technique as it is used on the oud to a flamenco guitarist? What if it was created independently and later someone noticed how much it looks like oud technique that they christened it "alzapua?'"
Posts: 15724
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ancient Greek Music Evidence (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
What would be necessary to demonstrate an Arabic influence?
Not sure for everybody else, but for me, I would accept it if we establish the actual date of the technique (Norman’s site points to Sabicas using it to interpret the older technique ppi) and show a causal connection to a plausible source of the inspiration. Since they did not call ppi “Alzapua”, and still have no term for that technique, we have to also determine the origin of the term to first describe the actual alzapua technique. Perhaps there is Arabic oud technical name for the similar movement with the quill to make triplets? Since Norman has established a clear lineage of context and function from ppi, it might be important to first demonstrate ppi is somehow related to oud, or explain why an “oud technique” suddenly replaced the ppi, or that both ppi and alzapua are derivative of oud technique.
Once we have a legit time line of first known occurrences we establish the who what and where. Like we know from Russel de Maria’s recent book how PDL got involved with the Oud for Almoraima (Carlos Lomas I recall). So we have a causal connection of the influence on Paco, but do we have anything like that for Sabicas and others (assuming we establish the Oud technique is indeed related to alzapua). We also have to rule out that it is not just that it superficially “looks” like oud technique and that is why someone added the name “alzapua” (if the term has any relationship to Oud I mean. Is púa the “quill” or pick translating exactly to the Arabic Reesha, mizrap etc.?,or maybe something else is there? Reesha pisha? LOL).
Perhaps a very simple thing would be to find Arabic musicians (in Montoya or Sabicas times or earlier) using the guitar to interpret their traditional music INSTEAD of proper oud. That would establish a practical transference of technical ideas from one instrument to the other in order to serve the music itself. (But microtone loss is corruption). I would buy that easier than a flamenco maestro trying to copy some oud player for no good reason. If such a thing could be demonstrated, I would be ok with the Arabic influence on the guitar technique. Meanwhile, we have already established too many other techniques came straight from baroque/classical guitar in general that we have to wonder why are we zeroing in on this one technique? Is it really the unique outlier that makes us think the cante and the rest of flamenco has Arabic roots? or is it just the evolution of ubiquitous pulgar playing/strumming of string instruments?
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread