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OK. Assuming I agree with your first assesment 1,2, 4,5 7,8, 10,11. The very first thing you see in the video of his foot tapping, going with his seco scratching rhythm (no chord at first, just apagado atapao, whatever you want to call it). Then great, he does that tapping style, and later only when he plays compas or basic strumming between falsetas. That is like when a drummer hits a groove and does some funky stuff with the kick drum. He feels the same internal beat, but has the foot doing the old "al golpe" accents. The way I feel that foot is like this in 3/4 time, quarter note equals 115 bpm, "&2, 3&, &2,3&". Meaning the foot does not go space-tap-tap-space-tap-tap, as equal feelings. There is a stress internal like space-tap-TAP-space-TAP-tap space tap TAP space TAP tap. Or in your counting style "(12)one TWO (3) FOUR five (6) seven EIGHT (9) TEN eleven. ETC.
Of course the accented numbers might not sound like or look like a louder or stronger foot tap, I am just using that to describe the internal feeling.
Then he starts the falseta and switches to just feeling the basic beat. 3/4 time, his foot is on 1,2, and 3 of a 3/4 at 115bpm. YOU got crossed somehow by describing his tap as 1,3,5,7, etc. It would be, based on your counting system, 12,2,4,6,8,10. You lost a beat somewhere. Then you kept that logic and thought he was switching to 12, 1, 3,4, etc, but you were crossed.
Typically, the switch of the foot tap feel happens on count 10, in your system. Meaning he is tapping 12,2,4,6,8,, then 10,11, 1,2,4,5, etc. The closing beat is the spring for the foot change gears, usually. That can happen on count 4 too, because there is no 12 in bulerias actually. It is just like a bar of 3/4 where the quarter note is 115 bpm, (NOT 230 bpm), and the down beat is 1, the closing beat is 3. The foot and the music so clearly go together to me. It is not a random choice. The foot is either 1,2,3 or &2 3&, depending on what he is playing. PDL does the same kind of thing. Tomatito too.
Some folks tap only 12,3,6,9, which to me is the equivalant bpm for the quarter note of 3/4, but with a 6/8 feel. The foot being 1, and 4 of the 6/8 measure. You often see the compas of Guajiras written this way, alternating 3/4 and 6/8. To me, the two feels can overlap in bulerias. BUT the feeling of the foot going in 6/8 like this "2,3, 5,6" where the heavy beat is the space, is very different than the feeling of &2 3&, of a 3/4. That difference is important for bulerias.
Well, I hope that its OK that I look at things in another way. You two guys (Ricardo and Romerito) always get carried away in long talks and lots of numbers Nothing Wrong with that!!!! I really appreciate your public discussions here on the forum. Its very interesting and we learn a lot....... It can just be a bit confusing.
I always feel bulerias as some kind of polyrythmic thing and this video is a great example. I used to play Jazz on the drum kit and bulerias is a bit like that. You do more than one rythm at a time and change the flow sometimes (Two´s, thre´s contrabeat etc.)
The tapping of both Moraito and the lady has to do with what they do besides tapping. Moraito accompanies his playing. The girl what she does besides tapping.
When we watch the girl she´s doing tapping on her wine glas and occasionally she does these shoulder hickups so typical for dancers. The video is a bit muddy so nothing is really to clear. Her tapping has to do with that IMHO. You can replace a tap by a hickup, a contrabeat, a silence etc. You name it. Just like in the playing.
Just my two cents.
To Exitao.
Try to relax with this counting and mental work. Try to feel ,Try to get the groove. Its before the mental thing. Without feel and groove.... No compás.
Its like what you wrote about language the other day. Knowing how to translate perfectly a word or a frase is the mental part of language. Speaking, and understanding it is to be in the groove. We are all different and mental work helps a lot of people understand the world, but in my opinion, the grove, the feel its what counts (In all aspects of life hehe )
Lot of numbers. The important thing is "115bpm". If you don't have a clue what that means, get a metronome. Put the metronome to 115, and tap your foot right along with the clicks. Now count clicks, 1,2,3, while tapping foot. Now double time the click with hand claps, 1&2&3&, keep the foot going. You are like a rhythm machine now.
Now omit clap "1", and the clap between 2 and 3. So you clap "-&2-3&-&2-3&", but keep the foot going on 1,2,3. The polyrhythm you create between your foot and claps, IS bulerias. That is the feeling as simply as I can put it.
Now switch your feet and hands.
Now the better way to do palmas, if you want to continue with this idea, is to reintroduce the clap that goes BETWEEN 2 and 3. But not just put it in there, you have to ACCENT it, louder than the other claps. (1)&2AND3&, (1) &2AND3&. But keep your foot going 1,2,3.
If you have this groove with the metronome, then you can do palmas for me anytime. You can get an other guy to do the same with you and do another polyrhythm. 1 (clapped rather lightly) (&)ah(2)AND3&, 1(&)ah(2)AND3&, etc keeping the foot going. so the stuff in () is silent, but gets filled in by the other guy's clapping. When you put the two together it sounds like this: http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/jerezpalmlong.mp3
This loop got cut in a way so that the VERY FIRST SOUND you hear, the accented clap, is the "AND" in my description above. AND3&, 1&ah2AND3&, 1&ah2AND3&, etc. This is palmas bulerias very typical, and notice there is no 12's reference. The 12 counting of this gets in the way of learning IMO. Ricardo PS, here I am playing something to that loop so you can see how the music fits. http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/Ricardopdlfast.wmv
I think the problem is that a lot of times people learn the guitar before learning the compas, if they started to do palmas or to play a bit of caja before the guitar, it probably would be easier getting a steady groove on the guitar later.
Try to relax with this counting and mental work. Try to feel ,Try to get the groove. Its before the mental thing. Without feel and groove.... No compás.
Its like what you wrote about language the other day. Knowing how to translate perfectly a word or a frase is the mental part of language. Speaking, and understanding it is to be in the groove. We are all different and mental work helps a lot of people understand the world, but in my opinion, the grove, the feel its what counts (In all aspects of life hehe )
I just noticed this now. So much to take in. I agree with you Anders, and you are correct. My problem is that my intellect doesn't want to stay with my body and races ahead with every idea.
But, yes, I will take efforts to take a deep breat and collect myself when listening or learning. I'll ruminate on all of this and just listen bodily and mindfully for the groove.
And then... I'll be back with more questions, to be sure!!!!
And again, thanks to everyone for their patience and efforts to set me straight!
You can replace a tap by a hickup, a contrabeat, a silence etc. You name it.
Well, this is what I was trying to say about Paco and Niño Josele and other guitarists I've seen. Sometimes the foot seems to wander all over the place, but the rhythm was spot on. However I must admit when good Flamenco guitarists are teaching, they can keep "foot rhythm" like a cajon player! Personally I think you can get yourself so bound up in numbers and in theory that you can become scared to play even a note or a strum....
As a wee "experiment", I dragged my 13 year daughter through from listening to her teenybopper hip-hop crap and asked her if she could reproduce what I tapped out on the table. I tapped out Siguiriyas rhythm six times and asked her to do the same. No problem I tapped out Bulerias rhythm with the same result. No counting...no problem... (Except to say "Is that IT?....JeeSuss!!....I thought this was going to be something interesting!....Don't disturb me again you freak!)
my two cents,
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
I think uploads are best for learning especially when complimented by explanations. I haven't done so because I know Ricardo had lessons available and I don't want to step on his toes. Another idea is to upload tracks and explain what is going on. The example with your daughter(RON) is great except that we are in cyberspace and we can't get together to do this. Anyway, I think it is good to put two cents out there. Some people will cherish every cent and will soon have a dollar.
Yes, yes, I already feel rich!
I like the tracks idea, if you want to be respectful of Ricardo, go to F-T and check his lessons listing. You could even ask him what he's working on so you don't step on his toes.
I imagine that Ricardo could also use this as a sandbox to see what works and doesn't work and keep that in mind for future lessons plans...
Ron: You have any other kids? Maybe you can send one to the colonies and do my tapping for me. Best if pre-trained.
I haven't done so because I know Ricardo had lessons available and I don't want to step on his toes.
Por favor. Seriously, do whatever you want man. I am not making a living from internet lessons! To me teaching is just communicating an idea. If people pay you, they actually pay attention!!! I have paid for lessons and what I got in return was invaluable, honestly.
i was hearing again one of the greatest flamenco records. Morao Y Oro....
so when i hear this intro on "Rompeserones" it reminds me other song..... maybe by Gipsy Kings? (cant remember the song) , isnt Morea , but cant figure out
theres a 2h plus video with all of his suposed best moments , if you fancy Its very nice.... altough this short performance is muted, but you allready got it , check all the others.
Necro post. Back in 2006, it seems, I was very political being careful how I explained compás stuff, because I had been booted off the other forum the year before, for advocating too strongly the use of the metronome.
Anyway, recently we talked about flamenco having some “puzzles” to be solved, mainly the cante accompaniment, but this rhythmic switching is also part of the game (so I feel now a days based on historical stuff). The reason for the tricky foot switching and like two people can feel the time differently for the same music, is because the Soleá compás is embedded INSIDE the fast bulería, the same as the cante. Or rather, despite the phrasing that might feel in a slow 3/4 pulse with 16th subdivision (foot on 12,2,4,6,8,10 etc.,) the cante is expressed more or less just as would Soleá lento, phrasing from 1-9 with a closing on 10 to 12. So there are these flips between the normal slow 3 and a double time Soleá, and the pivot point is the count 10 closing beat. Both guitar, dance, and singing express this at various times like a a “secret code” and once people figure it out, the phrasing becomes more clear. Getting used to different foot tap expressions aids in being able to mix the phrases together. I have noticed via Paco, Tomatito, and Moraito and others, that the switch on count 10 is “systematic”. Hard to say if they were taught this, or if it is intuitive, but considering it is so deliberate I feel that it is taught. The lie that “gypsies don’t count anything” is also part of this thing, such that I was actually shocked to see Farruco teaching his 5 year old grandson Farruquito “siete ocho Nueve diez” in that documentary from the 80s. This is basically a deliberate code in order to map phrasing when speeding up the tempo, and it has always been the case that this music is not going to be easy to learn for outsiders.
because the Soleá compás is embedded INSIDE the fast bulería, the same as the cante. Or rather, despite the phrasing that might feel in a slow 3/4 pulse with 16th subdivision (foot on 12,2,4,6,8,10 etc.,) the cante is expressed more or less just as would Soleá lento, phrasing from 1-9 with a closing on 10 to 12.
because the Soleá compás is embedded INSIDE the fast bulería, the same as the cante. Or rather, despite the phrasing that might feel in a slow 3/4 pulse with 16th subdivision (foot on 12,2,4,6,8,10 etc.,) the cante is expressed more or less just as would Soleá lento, phrasing from 1-9 with a closing on 10 to 12.
you mean the mapping is this? Solea -> Bulerias 1 -> 12 UN 2 -> 2 TRES 3 -> 4 4 -> 6 SIETE 5 -> 8 6 -> 10 7 -> 12 UN 8 -> 2 TRES 9 -> 4 10 -> 6 SIETE 11 -> 8 12 -> 10
gracias hombre.
“De nada”
In rhythmic escobillas for dance, sometimes, yes, as I repaired yours above to make cuadrao. However, the more important aspect is that while feeling a slow pulse, not necessary in long phrases like lento Solea but just 3 beats or foot taps, suddenly you need to express the double speed counts 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. And perhaps again like that several times, which is a double speed expression of Soleá that invokes a cierre on 10. I embed that change as Spanish words mixed in above. Those counts need to musically come out when perhaps, they were not before.
Like this performance is all normal bulerias where you might find half compas modules and such. But suddenly at 5:11-5:30, he is expressing each phrase as Solea but double speed.
Another example here, the change occurs in two spots: 3:20 for only two phrases, and then from 4:04 to the end. Those phrase modules are “10 count plus 2” and can’t break in half because they are expressing solea. The cante fits into that phrasing, and if you can’t lock into that change of feeling, most people can’t stop on 10 for example with everybody.
Another example here, the change occurs in two spots: 3:20 for only two phrases, and then from 4:04 to the end. Those phrase modules are “10 count plus 2” and can’t break in half because they are expressing solea. The cante fits into that phrasing, and if you can’t lock into that change of feeling, most people can’t stop on 10 for example with everybody.
En algunas ocasiones los ojos sirven de lengua. Could you point out a cante example please? Not sure to get what you mean.
Another example here, the change occurs in two spots: 3:20 for only two phrases, and then from 4:04 to the end. Those phrase modules are “10 count plus 2” and can’t break in half because they are expressing solea. The cante fits into that phrasing, and if you can’t lock into that change of feeling, most people can’t stop on 10 for example with everybody.
En algunas ocasiones los ojos sirven de lengua. Could you point out a cante example please? Not sure to get what you mean.
Best. Mecmachin
Here the two examples I show the same “agua Bendita” letra, one is Solea (perhaps you think it is faster like solea por buleria, but that is beside the point, the compas express of guitar is different), the other buleria.
Printable Version
Nothing Wrong with that!!!! I really appreciate your public discussions here on the forum. Its very interesting and we learn a lot....... It can just be a bit confusing. 
) 
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