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I'm not white...
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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 I'm not white...
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...I'm "rhythmically challenged." 
Watching that show Ron mentioned and reading up on music in general and the Moraito thread have me preoccupied with rhythm(s).
Unfortunately, very little of the material I come across pertains to flamenco compas.
But I have some questions to harry y'all with nonetheless.
Is flamenco compas polyrhythmic or irrationally rhythmic (and can I actually say "irrationally rhythmic)?
I'm beginning to think that the accented notes of compas are basically part of an irrational rhythm and these accented notes are really just shifting across/within the basic rhythm. And this shifting of the accented notes is the 'swing'.
But... when you bring in dancers with their contratiempo, then it becomes polyrhythmic, que no?
Tell me if I'm getting close here? Hot or cold? (Tell me why I'm not in bed when I have to get up at 0500hrs?)
When Ricardo talks about:
quote:
Now, would you guys say he plays on top of or behind the beat...?
Isn't this just asking if his syncopation is behind or ahead of the pulse?
Furthermore, just to prevent anyone from getting away with yes or no answers, I'll ask about guitars accompanying guitars. Both guitars are generally playing in the same key, but in different octaves (usually one with a capo). And at least one of them is either chasing or anticipating the pulse, in contrast to the other guitarist (at least when they are playing the same notes, that is).
Is that correct?
BTW:
You guys are great and have been so patient. I promise I'll buy tickets for all your concerts when you make it big. I'll even arrange for groupies if you come to play in town.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2006 8:25:15
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm not white... (in reply to Exitao)
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Flamenco is very polyrhythmic, but it depends on what is happening. When the foot is going one way (in 3 say) and the music is going another way (2 or 6/8), then the polyrhythm is obvious, visually. But sound wise you might not notice. That is why it is important to have percussion give a reference. A lot of synchopated modern flamenco stuff is better served to a percussion back up. That is why they love having cajon nowadays instead of just straight palmas or nothing. I like palmas for both modern and traditional.
The other thing you mention, irrational rhythm, is a more specific thing that CAN happen in flamenco, but does not affect the basic idea of the compas. For example, when a dancer changes the feet from duple to triple time, but the tempo stays the same. It is really more noticeable when modern flamenco guitarists play bulerias and do that slow quarter note triplet across the bar line. Tomatito does it often, Vicente sometimes, and Manolo Sanlucar quite often in "Tercio de Vara". What happens is it sounds like the guitar is slowing down suddenly, but the rhythm behind keeps going. Also the switching feels against the pulse is a big part of Tanguillo rhythm.
quote:
Isn't this just asking if his syncopation is behind or ahead of the pulse?
No. I am sorry but my question WAS a bit tongue in cheek, even though I wanted to hear answers. I was refering to some other discussion that was going on regarding MICROTIMING. That is not supposed to be synchoption (counter time rhythms), just a fancy name for deliberate but very SLIGHT rushing or dragging the time to give a desired feeling. The synchopation you talk about IS important for doing similar feeling things (like Ron talked about, where they demonstrated singing on the beat verses off the beat). My point of asking was to see how others were percieving Moraito's style and the "jerez" groove, which most folks seem to think is laid back or slightly behind the beat (not synchopated after the beat).
quote:
Furthermore, just to prevent anyone from getting away with yes or no answers, I'll ask about guitars accompanying guitars. Both guitars are generally playing in the same key, but in different octaves (usually one with a capo). And at least one of them is either chasing or anticipating the pulse, in contrast to the other guitarist (at least when they are playing the same notes, that is).
Is that correct?
I can't stand when I am soloing and I am getting "chased" by the accompanying rhythm guitarist. It feels awful. The pulse is a feeling and has to be steady. If I am not getting that from a rhythm guitarist, or percussionist, then I will prefer to have a drum machine going. A good dancer would feel the same. When tempo changes occur DELIBERATELY, then everyone involved has to be real careful and listen to the leader.
In regards to Microtiming as described earlier, I find that the leader or soloist, that has a rhythm backing that is a little behind or a little ahead, will want to keep what they are doing tight. If my rhythm section is too "laid back", I sense the whole thing dragging down. I will play ON TOP of the beat to compensate and keep it up if I can. Does not always work, and I hate the feeling of having to do that. Likewise, a big problem in slow flamenco dances is the group speeds up a little because they are on top of the beat, and the dancer will mark a little late, in hopes of keeping everyone grounded. The leader has to do it carefully so as not to imply a countra after the beat rhythm. Ideally, everyone keeps a steady pulse until a signal to change speeds if given.
It is the whole purpose of constantly practicing with the metronome.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2006 15:42:48
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: I'm not white... (in reply to Exitao)
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Thanks very much for your replies. You're Princes among men.
I have an odd need to understand things on as many levels as possible. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it impedes. But it's just how my brain works.
Now to synthesise and reflect back Ricardo's and sonikete's comments on accompaniment:
Ricardo prefers that the rhythm guitar play the beat exactly, i.e. keep rhythm
If they accompanying guitar is not playing rhythm 'properly' then it is better to have some form of percusion in order to keep the pulse explicit, and probably to help everyone stay tight.
Also, maybe this is Ricardo's preference, if people are playing with the beat, the lead guitar will play on top of the beat. Does this help with the feel of the music, or is this just a cumpulsion for the lead guitarist to stay in the lead?
If you were acompanying a singer, would you play on the beat or would you try to give it a laid back feel? Is there a convention(i.e a 'generally speaking'), or is it up to the performers and their preferences?
quote:
Romerito said:
Tabbing this out is time consuming
<...>
These are all best served by recordings. Flamenco is about listening. And doing. But I hope this helps to at least get you thinking in a good direction.
Thank you, and thank you all for you time on this. The tab helps visualise, so it is truly appreciated. And it does get me thinking in a "good direction" I think.
When we go see a play like Shakespeare, or a Greak tragedy or an Opera, it is always wise to know the story, before you go, so you understand what you see.
You guys are helping me to follow the story better when I listen. I know better what I am listening to and what to listen for.
Also, I find this technical aspect of music utterly fascinating too, it's like taking a Rolex apart and seeing all those shiny spining cogs and the flywheel and the jewels for the first time. "All that goes into this? But I thought it was just tick-tock!"
It's a feeling of joyful wonderment, really.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2006 20:10:11
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm not white... (in reply to Exitao)
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quote:
maybe this is Ricardo's preference,
No. My preference is that everyone is together, right on the same beat. Even when I accompany, if I feel the lead guitar "pushing" or on top, then I have to ignore him/her and hold the beat down. Might as well be playing by myself. In a band, you will notice the Bass and drummer playing more with each other than the soloist, if this kind of thing is happening.
quote:
If you were acompanying a singer, would you play on the beat or would you try to give it a laid back feel? Is there a convention(i.e a 'generally speaking'), or is it up to the performers and their preferences?
The guitarists who tend to rush (the majority, and when adrenaline is going, it is worse) will be told to play "laid back". Guitarist who tend to be sort of lazy and pulling it down, will be told to stay on top of the beat. In reality, singers feel pretty comfy if you know what it means to hold the compas steady, but it depends on the palo and what the singer REALLY wants specifically. I am speaking generally. For example, Tomatito and Camaron live, Tomatito is like a machine 90% of the time until Camaron really draaaaaags the phrase, right in the important lyric, and of course the guitar must slow down to match him. But these are special cases, and only done effectively by the masters. First learn to keep a beat despite the singers synchopation.
Same goes for dance accomp. You have to lay down a solid tempo for the dancer's escobilla until the signal to speed or change gears comes. Then what happens, is the speed up will reach a plateau, and you BETTER maintain it! No dragging back down or speeding up extra.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2006 22:10:29
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm not white... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
When you play with a singer, are you supposed to mark the compas or are you supposed to let the singer do that with his notes, and just suggest it by playing the offbeats?
One time I was trying to accompany this guy with alegrias, and I was just playing the compas steady, but he was complaning that I was leading him.
Most singing is off the beat, or early, like the guy on Ron's BBC show described. The accompanists tend to rush because of an early note, and not keep the accents where they should go. The singer than has to stay ahead of the guitar, and of course it becomes like a race. If the guitarist is told to play "laid back", he tends to keep it steady the way it should be. Could be what was happening to you, I don't really know. Best to learn with a singer who does good palmas while singing, and stay with his palmas, until YOU feel where the melody fits.
Same stuff happens to cajon players that accompany a synchopated falseta or foot step. If the lead guy says you are rushing, then you probably are, even though you think HE is. Get it? You can play contras WITH a singer or dancer, so long, again, as you are clear and even. It is wise to give the feeling of where you are every once in a while if you decide that doing contras WITH the lead, is better for the groove. Observe the recordings as mentioned.
I just remembered a great example of irrational rhythm. The flamenco tremolo, especially in the context of steady compas. Paco's buleria in a minor on Luzia, or Manolo Sanlucar's De capote.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2006 22:31:50
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