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In 2018 I atended a couple of masterclasses of him at Rotterdam Conservatory which obviously was interesting for the ones attending the masterclass of Dani de Morón as well. I attended both masterclasses as a spectator.
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
honestly it is a very weak and throat driven expression. A very quiet sound. This style has its place coming from the opera flamenco period with the warbling voice (fast vibrato). I think it is inspired by Vallejo, Marchena, and others. I greatly prefer Pena Hijo if you have ever listened to old stuff. A recent discussion about Israel Fernandez I had the same sentiment and the technique is not right it should be stronger like this amateur guy is doing. (he is a bit off tune but the power of the expression is correct using diaphragm)
what should I do different to like the cante jondo guys? The guy you sent isn't bad, but I won't listen to him on 'repeat'. I'm not a Taylor Swift guy, however even the cante jondo guys feel too extreme to me? I understand they have a lot of emotional depth, does that mean you have to have a lot of traumas like the gypsies to appreciate it? Not knowing Spanish doesn't help either.
I am definitely appreciating them a lot more since when I very first started flamenco but still that 'repeat' factor is missing and I want to have it.
One thing that doesn't necessarily come across very well on recordings or videos is just how good some of these guys are live.
I attended a concert in Granada held in honour of the late great dancer Manolete and, of all the artists that performed, there were two that really surprised me with the quality of their performances. One was Arcángel, he was excellent, just top notch. The other was Pitingo, who I expected to be a crooner, but he came across as a consummate entertainer and stuck to straight flamenco for his portion of the concert.
The only thing I suffer, aside of the occasional bad singer, is a lack of understanding Spanish but that never hold me from developing a love for cante that over the years even surpassed my love for the guitar.
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
I think you get used to the jondo singers like Agujetas quite quickly if the mood is right. Flamenco expresses the full range of emotions. I don't think I would wake up in the morning and put on a seguiriyas by Agujetas, but a Fandangos maybe
Do not neglect singers like Carmen Linares. I would say she and Agujetas are my two favorites right now.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
I am definitely appreciating them a lot more since when I very first started flamenco but still that 'repeat' factor is missing and I want to have it.
Seems like you are on the right track if you are appreciating more and actively listening.
In my opinion cante is rather something one participates in, than passively listens to. A recording is not the same as being in the room sharing a living, unfolding experience. That's obviously more possible in a community, as flamencos do in Spain. As a guiri that's not available, the best I can get is being at live performances, or accompanying amateur cantaores.
Active listening to recordings helps me. The more deeply I understand the forms and melodies the more I can appreciate things and be moved by them. I have found it helpful to study a cante recording by carefully analysing the melody in detail as best I can, so that I can play the melody on guitar or badly sing it. Modern slow down/isolation software helps.
Choose a cante and upload your accompaniment. You could take the guitar off the Fernando de Morena video using moises.ai You don't need the lyrics to hear the cante melody and respond with guitar. Cante are not songs. It is the melody that indicate the style not the letra (many different letra can be used for the same cante). Identify the name of the specific style of the cante you're studying, listen to other people interpreting the same cante.
Norman's valuable cante classification of various styles of solea, seguiriyas, bulerias por solea here: https://canteytoque.es/index.html
Carmen Linares and Pepe Habichuela gave a concert at Rotterdam Conservatory when we just started. It was recorded on video and I was alowed to plug in my caseterecorder and make an audio recording. The difference in input levels (both had their own inputchanel) was incredible. For Pepe I had to put my input level on maximum which was still insufficient and for Carmen I had to put it on a minimum and still it came in to loud :-).
It's a pitty that at the time I had no clue of cante yet (I had listen to solo guitar mostly) because in retrospect it was one of the verry best concerts I ever saw. Both did a splendid job that day. It's often said in flamenco no 2 executions of the same piece are alike but as it happened I got hold of a record (LP) that was basically identical and a life radioconcert that was basically identical as well... in notes that is but not in expression because the concert I recorded had a way greater "duende" feeling then the official record and the radio concert. I guess I was just lucky to catch them on a extra good day (friends of mine who toured for years generally had 1 or 2 of those extra good days per season).
They clearly were tuned to each other because Pepe used chords/harmonisations that followed/complimented Carmen's nuances into the extreme. So rather then playing the basic cords he often gave them a slightly different color fitting Carmen's nuances as a glove resulting in the most nuanced accompanying i ever saw although I was also hugely impressed once by a tarantas performed by Ramón El Portugués accompanied by his sun but for another reason. In general the interaction between a singer and guitarist in tarantas is one were the guitarist is silently waiting his turn to drop his "in between" lines without the 2 becoming a real unit. I never realy liked that kind of accompanying. But this time for the first time ever the guitarist did not just drop the traditional lines to fall back in silence again but managed to be there all the time complementing the singer like no other before or since. During the break I asked Tino (who attended the concert as well) if by any change he knew anyone secretly recorded it. He told me not to worry claiming an even more impressive one was available on the singers CD. But the only tarantas I could find was done the normal way and no match for the "futuristic" one we enjoyed that day.
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
Here Carmen Linares with Paco Cepero. During the interview talking about work required to understand in order to appreciate cante -at around 14.30:
Like Ricardo says in this thread "In postigo 8:53 he talks about cante accompaniment being a "puzzle" to solve. This is exactly right. I have come to learn about this thing during the Renaissance called "riddle culture" in music, of which I strongly feel flamenco was a part of and the system we use today, elusive and elitist in nature taking decades to learn, is a relic of that period." http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=357747&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#357889
what should I do different to like the cante jondo guys? The guy you sent isn't bad, but I won't listen to him on 'repeat'. I'm not a Taylor Swift guy, however even the cante jondo guys feel too extreme to me? I understand they have a lot of emotional depth, does that mean you have to have a lot of traumas like the gypsies to appreciate it? Not knowing Spanish doesn't help either.
I am definitely appreciating them a lot more since when I very first started flamenco but still that 'repeat' factor is missing and I want to have it.
you like heavy metal but do you like the singers? I mean guys like Dio, Halford, Dickenson, Tate, Kiske, and all the guys that Yngwie hired, etc. I mean to me, at first hearing flamenco I heard the same type of strong vocal expression. Well, I encountered some sissy singers too (like Arcangel, Marchena, etc., ). If you don't get a rise out of hearing that powerful voice, then you don't really get the cante I guess. It is an acquired taste for most folks. Today I appreciate the wimply singers as much as the powerhouse guys, and my tastes have changed. Like I used to like Chacon and Caracol best, but it evolved to appreciate more the orthodoxy of Mairena and Torre, Tomás, etc. So as you gain knowledge of the subject your tastes will evolve. If you only like Arcangel and Cameron that is cool too. As I said, Pena Hijo is amazing for me, even if he copies Chacon etc, and is not the "powerhouse" like others. El Pele is another that is very strong these days where as when he first appeared it was like to high pitch or something. I still love Indio Gitano, Maria Vargas, etc.
I used to not really like this guy much, but this was very powerful:
you don't have to like what I like....yet. Take your time exploring. Watch all the Rito y Geografia episodes...there are 90 some.
And that Fernando video you sent ? I instantly liked it. There's also a video of terremoto with moraito that is one of my favs. Maybe I've a specific taste..
Yeah, it's about what moves you, but that evolves if you expose yourself to as much of it as you feel able to. I really like listening to Cigala, Maria del Tango, Cameron, Salao ... I just can't get on with Chocolate and Turronero and a bunch of others I forget the names of. Chacon is ok but he doesn't move me like Salao. But a few years ago I didn't dig any cante really.
You wouldn't expect to like all the singers in another genre, or all the guitarists for that matter. Find what you dig, and study it if you feel it's important.
I find this video extraordinary, probably just my ignorance but I don't give a toss about that ...
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The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
At Rotterdam Conservatory we were verry blessed with good singers/dancers joining in. Since there were no good ones over here (the netherlands) back than (80ties) they came over from Spain. Obviously whenever Paco was touring with his company that was a good opportunity to have some of them as "sparing mates" for the students. It's kind of crazy that my first steps in the art of acompanying (with zerro experience and even hardly able to play a decent solo) was with such profound artists. I was verry surprised to hear Cigala was one of them (before he got famous) but it's not so strange I didn't remember him since apparently when present he didn't feel like working with non professionals and left without singing (who can blame him). Still many fabulous artists didn't mind doing so for hours/days when we were even less experienced. Singer El Chaparro and danser Raul (the best dancer I ever saw, his energy was incredible) were almost part of the "family". Unlike in the video below in the 80ties he switched to focusing on his footwork rather then the whole body. In a way he became a percussionist... and a damn good one.
Acompanying singers and dancers was part of both our education and our final exam which has 4 parts, a solo part, 1 or 2 songs with a singer, a couple of songs with singer and dancer and about 2 songs with ensemble. The singer and dancer are introduced to you 2 hours before the exam. They tell you what songs to play (the flamenco way so put your capo there and there, first introduction on the guitar, some copla's, escobilla, copla, finale or whatever) after which you have some time to rehearse (not enough to do the whole thing) which already is part of the exam. Obviously when these artists are present to join in with a final exam whenever possible they were also scedualed to work 1:1 with the more advanced students behind closed doors allowing them to experience the art of playing with singers/dansers. I grabbed the opportunity to earspy some of these gatherings with the singer of my final exam who happened to be Segundo Falcón. Still regret I didn't play my self composed introduction for Alegrias but kept it safe.
The very first final exam ever was in the presence of a living legend (Fosforito) but unfortunately he wasn't hired to join in as a singer but to be part of the exam comisie. I learned a lot from his records with Paco de Lucia (quite often songs of just 1 copla that were verry clear and educational).
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
That Serneta 1 of Pena Hijo seems directly influenced by Niña de los Peines, or are they both following Chacon?
It is both, and neither. Notice the second letra of Pena Hijo is the same as chacon, so obviously following him. But all 3 are following the tradition (supposedly) of Serneta herself. Lebrijano claims to to have blood relation to her (Utrera) but she is also associated with Jerez. I really like Pastora's SECOND letra, as it shows the scope of Serneta 1 allows for the normal repetition of tercios, coupled with variation on the Cambio to emphasize G (via F#), instead of the typical E (calling the C chord). In my research these variations point to the most "normal" melodic Skeleton that fits the structure of Soleá in general. In other words, compared to say Mellizo, Frijones, Joaquin de Paula (Alcalá), or Andonda, etc., the Serneta variants seem more fundamental to me, or more colorful melodically, tracing out the harmonic structure clearly. The Soler's do a good job tracing that melody in Talega, and Mairena's "Noriega" variations, but I also noticed in Rito that Oliver from Triana did several that follow the same pattern, but he claims these as Triana/ Ollero tradition of the alfareros. They don't approach this detail, and worse, I get a sense nobody likes Oliver as a singer or representative of anything, but I take it all as evidence of "something" traditional none the less.
I really like Pastora's SECOND letra, as it shows the scope of Serneta 1 allows for the normal repetition of tercios, coupled with variation on the Cambio to emphasize G (via F#), instead of the typical E (calling the C chord). In my research these variations point to the most "normal" melodic Skeleton that fits the structure of Soleá in general. In other words, compared to say Mellizo, Frijones, Joaquin de Paula (Alcalá), or Andonda, etc., the Serneta variants seem more fundamental to me, or more colorful melodically, tracing out the harmonic structure clearly..
Thanks for pointing that out and sharing your insights about Serneta 1 and solea in general. Of course you are far advanced of me, so I can't offer you a meaningful reply. Glad that I have learnt enough now to at least follow what you're talking about. Just one of these posts of yours helps direct hours or weeks of enjoyable study for me.
Seems Pastora was the only one to learn directly from La Serneta. In any case this recording of her and Melchor is beautiful to me.
For me regarding voice performance and guitar This is for me n1 i guess, an exception i like more rough and deep old macho voice. This entire record is masterpiece
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