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thanks. In postigo 8:53 he talks about cante accompaniment being a "puzzle" to solve. This is exactly right. I have come to learn about this thing during the Renaissance called "riddle culture" in music, of which I strongly feel flamenco was a part of and the system we use today, elusive and elitist in nature taking decades to learn, is a relic of that period.
I own two guitars he hand picked, the orange Conde I record my album with and a negra my student got from him in 2000. Both are superior, however, having met him and purchased from him is certainly is the typical guitar salesman type. But at least he has some integrity and doesn't dump lemons on the clients. He took my dads horribly beat up Ramirez classical as a trade in at 1k which was very generous of him (it sounded bad and looked worse LOL). That guitar made me anti-Ramirez for most of my career (but I like his book).
thanks. In postigo 8:53 he talks about cante accompaniment being a "puzzle" to solve. This is exactly right. I have come to learn about this thing during the Renaissance called "riddle culture" in music, of which I strongly feel flamenco was a part of and the system we use today, elusive and elitist in nature taking decades to learn, is a relic of that period.
I own two guitars he hand picked, the orange Conde I record my album with and a negra my student got from him in 2000. Both are superior, however, having met him and purchased from him is certainly is the typical guitar salesman type. But at least he has some integrity and doesn't dump lemons on the clients. He took my dads horribly beat up Ramirez classical as a trade in at 1k which was very generous of him (it sounded bad and looked worse LOL). That guitar made me anti-Ramirez for most of my career (but I like his book).
I know folks he’s sold guitars to also, you got to talk some talk with those who aren’t already guitar experts, like you and I. 😝 I love Postigo however because he’s amassed a great collection of flamenco guitars and loves to show them off with Flamenco playing, he does not just tickle an antique thinking it’s a fragile flower, he puts a pulgar into the metal. Brune’ same with his demos guitar’s with guts.
Bach for example, famous painting, has one in his hand. This is inherited from the Renaissance Franco-flamenco polyphony. Flemish dudes like Josquin would also encode words via solmization syllables called stogetto cavato
I am leaning in the direction that the identification of the cante melody that is set in stone, invoking a specific harmonization, is part of this practice (cantus firmus technique) such that we have to do it "in the moment". Just like vihuela "vertical sonorities" we have to get the chords and cadences correct. It is a game or "puzzle' to be solved. Encoded in a lot of the flemish motet extractions in the vihuela rep are clausulae that punctuate text and main melody (cantus firmus). These devices are akin to how we punctuate text and melody of the cante. A fun but challenging game. Many guitar phrases alone, even used in solo playing, are like the naked clausulae with the cantus (cante) missing, that we express over and over.
Bach for example, famous painting, has one in his hand. This is inherited from the Renaissance Franco-flamenco polyphony. Flemish dudes like Josquin would also encode words via solmization syllables called stogetto cavato
I am leaning in the direction that the identification of the cante melody that is set in stone, invoking a specific harmonization, is part of this practice (cantus firmus technique) such that we have to do it "in the moment". Just like vihuela "vertical sonorities" we have to get the chords and cadences correct. It is a game or "puzzle' to be solved. Encoded in a lot of the flemish motet extractions in the vihuela rep are clausulae that punctuate text and main melody (cantus firmus). These devises are akin to how we punctuate text and melody of the cante. A fun but challenging game. Many guitar phrases alone, even used in solo playing, are like the naked clausulae with the cantus (cante) missing, that we express over and over.
Perhaps someday when you have free time we can do a Skype chat and I can spill all the beans of my research if you are interested. I am still not totally public with it as I am still digging for direct evidence in my spare time.
I love Postigo however because he’s amassed a great collection of flamenco guitars and loves to show them off with Flamenco playing, he does not just tickle an antique thinking it’s a fragile flower, he puts a pulgar into the metal.
I agree. I used to think he was a rip off artist, but over the years I have gotten to know him. He was a very respected accompanist and has knowledge of the nuances of a flamenco guitar which few have. And his prices are negociable.
Do you know that he began his career as a bailaor, a teenage star team with his sister?
For some reason I can’t access that you tube post. I also looked in my copy of Leeman Perkins Encyclopedia of Renaissance music and couldn’t find reference to clausulae. But I did read about them in general and it sounds like a kind of extended remate that can link bigger sections of songs to create longer compositions. Is that part of it?
Have any other YouTube examples?
Perkins book is older, but a solid reference book, the work you’re talking about was done published in 2015 so not surprising it’s not in Perkins, unless there’s another term for describing this in earlier scholarship besides the casual ‘riddle’. I did find information about riddle culture in Renaissance societies and it’s more akin to parlor games and poetry for upper class people with a rarified social life. Like the study tertulias in the Italian houses like Medici and Borgia. ( hey don’t sell out those Borgia as violent thugs, Lucretia was highly responsible person who minded the care of the people working her land holdings)
I love Postigo however because he’s amassed a great collection of flamenco guitars and loves to show them off with Flamenco playing, he does not just tickle an antique thinking it’s a fragile flower, he puts a pulgar into the metal.
I agree. I used to think he was a rip off artist, but over the years I have gotten to know him. He was a very respected accompanist and has knowledge of the nuances of a flamenco guitar which few have. And his prices are negociable.
Do you know that he began his career as a bailaor, a teenage star team with his sister?
I knew he could dance por fiesta because he throws down some steps in a few of his videos from the 1980’s. I follow him on facebook and I don’t know how to post his Facebook video reels here, but yesterday he played an original Torres which he tongue in cheek called a classical guitar, then proceeded to play the most gritty metallic solea falsetas I’ve ever heard in first position. All the music is on the first four frets. Verdad
For some reason I can’t access that you tube post.
Well this is a problem because I can keep sending you videos but if you can’t see them it is pointless. It is a normal YouTube video and he has a bunch of interesting stuff on his channel, not only from the Renaissance. Puzzle canons or riddle canons is the subject. If you didn’t know the crab canon of Bach from his painting, it is explained in many places on YouTube. We take it for granted that some scholars figured that out, but it is framed like he is a unique genius musician in that regard, rather than part of a bigger historical culture of using music to encode concepts that are deep and esoteric. It is complex by design so maybe the video animations I want to show you are not even that helpful. I just wanted to “prove” that it is a legit studied thing in musicology, even if it is fringe level.
The issue is not that this is “new” scholarship, but rather that there are these “gate keepers” in academia. Something like that Bach canon we take for granted, but it is based on a subjective interpretation, designed only for the initiated into the system. It has to be clearly explained for even seasoned musicians to “get it” from the painting itself. If some scholar has not already noticed something specific, then how dare you claim so and so is doing some procedure only YOU have figured out. Well, that is the point of the culture, it is a “game” and only the initiated are supposed to get it. I hope you at least read the wiki article about Sogetto Cavatto? I mean that is not as complex as a canon/fugue switching clefs etc., as the example I tried to link. There are simpler ones and more complex ones. It is for an elite, but not like you make it sound here:
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I did find information about riddle culture in Renaissance societies and it’s more akin to parlor games and poetry for upper class people with a rarified social life.
Hardly “parlor games”, but more like art symbolism and such, which only require intellect to understand, not a specific class of people. And here the music aspect ties in to the Art aspect of the same type of thing, which I assume you are already familiar with. Like the amorphic skull that nobody could figure out for a long time, and today they are still trying to figure out all the riddles in this painting:
But more than just “brain games”, people are communicating to other initiates with the music and art itself, and there were reasons (during that time) to do such a thing. Perhaps Bach is just showing off, but he had a tough life himself. Regardless of the reasons, I am just saying there is a lineage of the practice and I have come to view flamenco as part of that lineage, hence a lot of confusion and mystery surrounding the culture and the way it is learned.
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I also looked in my copy of Leeman Perkins Encyclopedia of Renaissance music and couldn’t find reference to clausulae. But I did read about them in general and it sounds like a kind of extended remate that can link bigger sections of songs to create longer compositions. Is that part of it?
That sounds too specific. Clausula is a “clause” and is the punctuation of the text, musically speaking. The musical device is today called a “cadence”. If we remove these from the text, we miss the historical evolution of the thing. In Polyphony all these voices are overlapping with the text that is also doing that. At various points in the setting, the composer will align the text together and use a musical cadence that eventually becomes the modern PAC or IAC cadences (V-I, or 2-5-i, etc.). So with flamenco cante, we have to catch the tonos for the singer to punctuate his lines of verse, meanwhile keeping compas. The chords are the counter voices and the cante is the main theme. Imagine that there were overlapping words sung as the notes in the chords that fit under a sung bulería, the same letra but all staggered in compas and polyphonic, and it comes together finally, on count 10 or wherever the main singer wants it.
Clausula is singular clausulae is plural, as there are several ways to do it depending on the main mode of the melody. I tried to explain earlier in your Chorale off topic thing, that BAch had different settings where he was word painting or doing major or minor harmonies based on the chosen texts. The melodies themselves imply voice leading rules such that BAch would have to choose an IMPERFECT cadence if he wanted say a major chord under a minor mode melodic note. Like in flamenco we do a “cambio” to a major harmony despite the singer singing some other note (C chord under a sung E or G for example is common).
Anyway, my point is that these concepts of aligning text verses to melody and harmonic structure derive from this Flemish polyphony, and specifically like the cases in the Vihuela books where they mix tablature for the counter voices with mensural notation for a stand alone sung theme. The modes of the Renaissance collapse during the Baroque into two modes, major or minor, but our flamenco is preserving much of the Renaissance conception of tonality. To understand cadence, I have posted this video before, but it will explain with animation “clausulae”:
Jeez professor, yes I know the crab canon, I even know that Schoenberg used it as a ‘model’ for his tone row type called an Inverted Crab.
Hai sensei, I will make no excuse to watch your assignments!
Maybe parlor games is too soft an explanation for riddles that require a modicum of intellectual development. But my question was under what name would some of these concepts be known in older scholarship circles, you put a lot of sauce on your answer back, whilst I in no way doubt your premise that this culture existed.
I read regularly into history of this time period early renaissance to mid 18th century because I’m interested in politics, thinkers and artists of the period. It’s odd that I’m not more versed in this subject, in fact it’s kind of new to me, which is surprising me due to how long I’ve been interested in the time zone you talk about.
Also noteworthy is the understanding that in the early renaissance it was possible for a well connected person to be able to survey all the books that comprised the complete written body of human learning. A person with enough money and connections could travel to a hand full of libraries in courts or monasteries and see all the books ever written ( basically pertaining to Europe) and it was possible to read half of them if you applied yourself, so among intelligentsia at the time there were a good many ‘common secrets’ that those without access to books have had. Not to say average people weren’t smart, but they didn’t live in the ‘rarified circles’ of the connected intelligentsia, who were the riddlers.
So far I’m on board with the idea that cante flamenco is supported on the guitar by a harmonic and cadential frame that’s akin to Renaissance pre solid tonic key bases. The modern sense of harmonic harmony ( or atonal structures) and the Renaissance concept of harmonic flow are like big parenthesis around the more strict ( but also loose) notion of 12 key centers of the late baroque though Wagner etc.
On one hand I’m dealing with a guitar ensemble group that wants easy arrangements of Beatles songs, competing with trying to find classical repertoire I can adapt for crazy soprano and guitar ensemble, to you and riddles in music.
But my question was under what name would some of these concepts be known in older scholarship circles, you put a lot of sauce on your answer back, whilst I in no way doubt your premise that this culture existed.
Unfortunately they are under various names, rather than a collective umbrella. I am trying to collate it for you, if you don’t want to get into papers and books as I linked that one. There is the Soggetto Cavato (this is important and I keep sending you there because flamenco cante is melody that we follow, like a code, regardless of the lyrics, however, there is a formula in the lyrics as well, but basically a melody “carries baggage”), and canon as discussed, and more things having to do with poetry of the text, and amorphic momento mori skulls and etc. Even tablature, when you figure it out is a cipher, or code, that takes you into this unique world that average joe can’t be a part of. So a lot of this stuff is “hiding in plain sight”.
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I read regularly into history of this time period early renaissance to mid 18th century because I’m interested in politics, thinkers and artists of the period. It’s odd that I’m not more versed in this subject, in fact it’s kind of new to me, which is surprising me due to how long I’ve been interested in the time zone you talk about.
What I see, for spain in particular is a “historiography” issue in general. There are bubbles of good scholarship from this time period and they are not permitted to overlap to create a proper venn diagram…but remain as these spheres where if you try to enter one coming from another area (say historical vs poetry vs music theory practice etc.) you are stopped at the door like “thou shall not enter until you use the correct terminology”. This I see soon after WW2, when the language starts to change. Like “chord” versus “vertical sonority”, etc. So I see a bunch of scholars, and have talked to several, that are disconnected from each other. And here I am following footnotes and find out, “oh, not only did person A KNOW person B, but he lived at person C’s house for a while and person B handed him 400 ducats of gold for unknown reasons”….and I am like “huh?”, because the mainstream has zero info about any connection between these 3 people since one is a thinker, the other a “noble”, the other a priest/musician, all occupying some other field of study. I have had intense email exchanges with PHD scholars where after being intrigued by facts I present them, don’t seem to want to help me with connecting any dots, and in many cases I am sent back to people I have already communicated with as THE EXPERT in this area…and a big etc. So I am seeing a big disconnect in general, so don’t feel bad you have not encountered, in a clearly stated manner, this thing I am talking about.
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A person with enough money and connections could travel to a hand full of libraries in courts or monasteries and see all the books ever written ( basically pertaining to Europe) and it was possible to read half of them if you applied yourself, so among intelligentsia at the time there were a good many ‘common secrets’ that those without access to books have had.
Not if the books are in a heaping pile of smoking ash, which was also a “thing” at this time.
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So far I’m on board with the idea that cante flamenco is supported on the guitar by a harmonic and cadential frame that’s akin to Renaissance pre solid tonic key bases. The modern sense of harmonic harmony ( or atonal structures) and the Renaissance concept of harmonic flow are like big parenthesis around the more strict ( but also loose) notion of 12 key centers of the late baroque though Wagner etc.
Cool. Well, that is all driven by melody and text (cante and letra if you want), but good. About notion of 12 keys, well like your Bermudo glued in frets thing, which is amazing for the time, and his complaint of out of tune singers…who would care anyway? Well, how about this guy (Greiter), who gave this piece as a gift to Albrecht in 1540’s. There is a score, but just listen to it. The “fa” ficta appear one by one (adding flats), taking us from F major around the left hand side all the way to enharmonic Fb major. That is, essentially, 8 of the 12 covered, in ONE 3 minute piece. And if you find scholarship about this piece, you will touch on some of stuff I have been looking into. By comparison, Flamenco traditionally only uses 6 or 7 keys, extended only recently by modern players including David Jones.
Whew, I carefully studied the video on cadence. That’s nutty intricate stuff. Fascinating and so different than modern riddle culture of backward masking satanic messages 😂
Seriously he’s the go to guy for breaking apart that stuff.
Holbein the Younger is an OG -
I don’t think the curator presenter mentioned this, ( I watched most of it) but the mode of dressing in Tudor era in Henry Ocho court especially was influenced by the connections to the Ottoman Empire. That big coat he’s wearing is influenced by the robes and coats of Ottoman sultans. During Tudor times they borrowed that look to give a sense of grandiosity and empire to the higher rungs on the court ladder. If you could afford to be in Tudor court that was the height of man’s fashion and pink was considered a trim color that symbolized masculinity. Not like how today it means you play with Barbie.
However best not upstage Henry himself with your sultanic fashion, Cromwell knew well. The guy in the painting is French so he got a pass and Henry probably never saw this painting…
My favorite part is the back curtain, as she states, Holbein painted it as a flat pattern, and superimposed shadows on the flat green designs. This is a brilliant device which shows how a pro can speed up the process and still create a stunner. The skull seems normal to me, I’ve been looking at this since I was 3 years old because my dad was a painter and gave me a book about art in 1966 that had a reproduction of this picture. That book however got lost in the move to Japan.
Whew, I carefully studied the video on cadence. That’s nutty intricate stuff. Fascinating and so different than modern riddle culture of backward masking satanic messages 😂
Cool, glad you took the time thanks. So perhaps you noticed the soft cadence is the basis of the phrygian descending melodies. If you add the multistep cadence you find the common “Andalusian cadence” (a Tenorizans MELODY, NOT barre chords) is dealt with in 3 ways mainly. First, the Tenor cadence gives us something like the “flamenco” Bb chord, where the discant must have that open G string a 6th above tenor or Bass Bb, in order to resolve the cadence (the fretted F is a violation and the open E might also be problematic for that time as it is a tritone, but have found it many times as suspended type voicings that would drop to D, however we have that in our chording as well). So that thing is huge for me because I realize we don’t only use Bb-A triads we equally as often use those “correct” voicings where we sneak in the G note before resolve to A (and the Picardy 3rd has always been pretty obvious to me and I always pushed back on the harmonic minor junk because we actually don’t do that in Flamenco as much as use cadence and save that C# for the final chord, both cante and falsetas).
But second, we have also the proper Soprano or Canto cadence, where the bass line walks up (F-Gm-A major), in equal portions to the above. I used to believe these devices are developed by flamenco guitarists for variety, until I noticed the polyphonic rules of this old music where these deceives are already encoded in the vihuela stuff. And the 3rd method is the one that we systematically avoid in Flamenco guitar, that is the plagal cadences as shown (basically the Gm moves to D instead of A, despite the main voice or tenor melody resolving to A from Bb, and the necessary F# appears.). However, the “flavor” of it is still present when we think of some more modern approaches influenced by manuel de Falla (all that por medio material that uses that Gm-D major sound or harmonic major, which I realized in context of the “mi mode” during the Renaissance, is basically this Plagal cadence via the Bass leap by 4th or 5th). This third option is much more common during the Renaissance as a way to punctuate verses in the middle of the piece, saving the other two options (to resolve to A properly) for the final important cadences that establishes that phrygian mode. (Admitting that weird fandango that resolves the cante not to typical C major, they sing a C# like an alto counter voice, then continue back to E via C natural down. That is almost the same contextual device. IN por medio it is infact that G-F# and D chord is needed, but instead of Gm we use A7-D major typically).
None of that is in the Baroque, or rather those above devices are like “half-cadence” in the context of minor keys, giving rise eventually to the augmented 6 chord confusion (it derives from phrygian). Even though the Aug 6 was a violation (G# instead of G natural above the Bb tenor melody note), we do find rare examples sneaking in. I was told by one scholar that these would be “rectified” by performers….but if you see something encoded in a vihuela tab that is like the whole life savings of that guy plus they printed corrections often, I have to wonder about that. Bermudo also used diminished and augmented chords, which I found pretty crazy for the day (they are prepared or staggered as suspensions, but on dry vihuela it is still significant when you consider sustained voices would really bring out those exotic harmonies). I saw this (in same context) manifest as C# dim over E bass (G in the middle and voices resolve to D), and the augmented triad as Bb held over from that same plagal cadence where the other voices went from Gm to that D major early, then the A resolves over top. So I see all the ingredients in this epoc, perfectly explaining these tricky things that previously I needed an expanded Circle of 5ths etc., to account for since I was thinking this harmony is “like baroque” but with added phrygian. The truth is, flamenco guitarists have (unknowingly) simply relaxed the old voice leading rules but stuck to the basic system used for modes 3 and 4. Otherwise we would not have these strict coded cadences like the Soleá escobilla etc., simply pointing back to that old practice.
The truth is, flamenco guitarists have (unknowingly) simply relaxed the old voice leading rules but stuck to the basic system used for modes 3 and 4. Otherwise we would not have these strict coded cadences like the Soleá escobilla etc., simply pointing back to that old practice.
I am an ignoramus when it comes to music theory and these historical topics, but I really enjoyed that cadence video. I have no qualified opinion on your theory of how flamenco guitarists have “...simply relaxed the old voice leading rules but stuck to the basic system…” But from my place of ignorance, the connection that you are pointing to between 16th century music and flamenco seems reasonable, rather than some kind of music theory ‘pareidolia’.
It gives some shape to why certain guitar moves feel right, and are considered ‘correct’ when accompanying the melody of the cante. Why a particular guitar move next to the cante manifests either a weak or complete cadence. And when it feels right to do one or other, or neither.
Anyway as I said, I am wading in way over my head.
I am enjoying a cursory read of the below book. It discusses the origins of human choral singing through a wide context, including the origins of music, evolution of human intelligence, language, speech, polyphony etc...
“The origins of human polyphony were initially connected to the appearance of the metro-rhythmic unity among the groups of hominids and it served the important role of the defense against the major African ground predators”
“Musical ear and good sense of rhythm was much more important for our hominid and early human ancestors before the advance of articulated speech. After the language became predominantly spoken, musical ear lost in survival value and was mostly relegated to the religious and cultural domains.”
Joseph Jordania “Who Asked the First Question? Origins of Human Choral Singing, Intelligence, Language and Speech” (Tbilisi State University, Logos, 2006)
It gives some shape to why certain guitar moves feel right, and are considered ‘correct’ when accompanying the melody of the cante. Why a particular guitar move next to the cante manifests either a weak or complete cadence. And when it feels right to do one or other, or neither.
Yes that is exactly right. And what and when we do this thing is driven by the cante itself which although is interpreted uniquely by each singer, is based on a “set in stone” form of the thing, which I will eventually claim is part of a certain specific repertoire from back then. The differing interpretations (and complex rhythms) are somewhat shielding the simple source, but “pureza” as a “thing” of the culture, seems to have preserved it good enough for the likes of me, and by its nature is taking us many years to discern via experience in the subjective “Hot seat” as a guitarist or however deeply involved one is with the genre. As Sabicas said “20 years of cante accompaniment, 20 of baile, and only then can you make a decent guitar solo”.
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I am enjoying a cursory read of the below book. It discusses the origins of human choral singing
Cool, I will check it out. I was thinking the other day about those early hominids and how they invented the bullfight type thing by the way they worshiped and took down those animals as a team, and they had their art and music going on as well. All before Homo Sapiens even got involved it seems. Of course we modern humans can appreciate that we would not be here if that ritual had not been on going, and don’t need to literally “act it out” to be empathetic and appreciative (non-hypocritical), but for me I think the critics happy to see some traditions go extinct need to ask the question “wait….why the hell are these Spaniards STILL doing this thing?”, and try to really answer it first before it disappears and nobody will care.
You say the baroque is different that the riddle culture doesn’t expand. Can you go further on that? I mean the way continuo culture developed late renaissance with the kinds of ‘bands’ that start with Monteverdi and the art of playing accompaniment with figured bass. That’s not an extension of the riddle thing?
I’m thinking your concept of cante as part the riddle culture is valid, but curious about where it breaks with post renaissance and how ( the missing link question we all ponder) how it survives through cante.
You say the baroque is different that the riddle culture doesn’t expand. Can you go further on that? I mean the way continuo culture developed late renaissance with the kinds of ‘bands’ that start with Monteverdi and the art of playing accompaniment with figured bass. That’s not an extension of the riddle thing?
It absolutely does, it is a continuous line right up to modern times. However, the academic world draws a line in the sand, like an invisible shield and won’t allow talk about those direct lineages. It is like you have to change your language to talk about one subject or the other. Hence you can’t say “chords” are going on in the Renaissance, nor “clausulae” going on in the Classical. Like we learn about fugue, but not about cantus firmus that gave rise to the concept of “imitation” and transporting the melody between voices. We start learning about tonal music from Bach who is the tail end of the Baroque already. Then they make a big deal about Mozart’s Jupiter little fugue Diddy. Like, some things are not that impressive if we go back and study some things a bit older. Like I look back learning about sonata allegro form, and how silly it was to do all that analysis while not even understanding how CADENCE evolved. But as Romerito always pointed out, I only have a BACHELOR degree in music. Well, I used to hate Shenkerian stuff, but he is basically tracking the clausulae with his “Ursatz” and such reductions, skipping over the basic harmonic analysis of common practice era and reconnecting with the Renaissance voice leading concepts. But he was racist so who cares anymore?
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I’m thinking your concept of cante as part the riddle culture is valid, but curious about where it breaks with post renaissance and how ( the missing link question we all ponder) how it survives through cante.
Simply starting with the concept of a “Phrygian key” which between Fischer and Bach systematically disappears. (Fischer had an E phrygian prelude and fugue set included in his set of key explorations that inspired Bach’s WTC collection, but Bach only used major and minor, allowing the Phrygian keys to collapse into the other two as needed. He even does this with antiquated themes, as I explained with your Guitar ensemble arrangement recently). The cante carries not only melodic formulae for the palos but also implies the harmonic system the guitar uses. The family or repertoire of a specific subset of Renaissance melodies have been preserved and are adhered to such that singers going off the rails are discouraged and systematically the “purity” of the tradition maintains the system. That is not to say that upgrades have not been successful. For example modern tonos for certain cante mineros have changed to better fit the traditional melodies. Like when Bach upgraded the harmonies for old standard tunes. However, dumping the Phrygian as he did would NOT be permitted in flamenco, since the distinction is so central, and BASED on the cante itself being preserved and nurtured.
The “riddle” aspect is simply the method of learning and identifying the cantes in the noise, as which ever artistic aspect we are involved with. A singer attempts not to create a new melody, but upgrades their repertoire with more accurate variations, as per their traditional sources. With this new found knowledge they communicate it on the fly with the guitarist, checking their knowledge in the process, OR teaching them. People like Chacon and Mairena traveling, investigating, improving and expanding their repertoire and understanding. Dancers promote certain styles over others and play with the coded rhythm vocabulary, and the guitarists have to make this all coherent by deep study via experience.
Was the system ever written down? Well, we know the lyrics yes, and Ocon and other “academic music sources” implicate possibilities. George Borrow discusses the manuscript committed to memory that had been lost of “los del Afición”, by his dating, that was in existence before 1800. Perhaps such a manuscript was not only letras, poems etc., but since they are called “songs of the Afición” that the taurinos loved to be involved with for unknown reasons, I strongly suspect at some point tablature that was an early formal structure of palos to be used in conjunction with the letras, were in such a collection, or went along with such a manuscript. Richard Ford talks about how nothing is published for guitar but selling and passing of tablature manuscripts was popular. Something like that could be once again hiding in plain sight. I would consider this direct evidence of my “theory” if it ever were to pop up. Mairena’s discussion of the “hermetic” preservation and development of the repertoire amongst the elite gitano community we are referencing here, therefore would be a logical method of the preservation of these cantes, with or without these manuscripts.
Historically I already have the “why” question as to the preservation of this tradtion and its secretive nature, worked out. The melodies themselves are carrying this information believe it or not.
Okay I misunderstood how you implied it didn’t carry through the baroque period, it is present, but historians write of speak about it differently than the people in their own time.
I’ve been listening to Art of the Fugue to have a deeper ear memory of some of the fugues because were probably going to play a few later this year. But now I hear more cadences within contrapuntus 1 -
I’ve been listening to Art of the Fugue to have a deeper ear memory of some of the fugues because were probably going to play a few later this year. But now I hear more cadences within contrapuntus 1 -
Yes man great stuff. I just dropped a bit of my research in this other thread where I finally pique the interest of Romerito, comparing some cantus melodies to his own Solea transcription. Part of the “riddle” culture expression I mean about the cante is that certain melodies from the Renaissance “source” are sneaking through the Baroque/classical era, by gitanos singing them, and generally folks believe these phrygian melodies to be “Arabic”, which continues to shroud the origin of them. It is all a fun game. You don’t’ have to read our back and forth, but you can read this one post or just glance at the 4 comparative melodies I provide (all are “Flemish inspired” cantus melodies as per their renaissance function/origins, yet I sourced these particular ones from Baroque era publications, ie they carried through the times of their respective genre, not Spanish-folk/flamenco or Arab related).
Also in that thread Romerito said “we don’t see aug2 sung in Renaissance court music”, which I showed is not correct as per musica ficta of Fuenllana (if interested). I don’t consider aug2 THAT big a deal, but it is yet another detail that is accounted for in the vihuela repertoire.
PS., if you happened to recognize or figure out where those melodies are coming from (ie., solve the riddle ), please keep it to yourself for now or drop me a PM if you want confirmation.
I’ve been listening to Art of the Fugue to have a deeper ear memory of some of the fugues because were probably going to play a few later this year. But now I hear more cadences within contrapuntus 1 -
Yes man great stuff. I just dropped a bit of my research in this other thread where I finally pique the interest of Romerito, comparing some cantus melodies to his own Solea transcription. Part of the “riddle” culture expression I mean about the cante is that certain melodies from the Renaissance “source” are sneaking through the Baroque/classical era, by gitanos singing them, and generally folks believe these phrygian melodies to be “Arabic”, which continues to shroud the origin of them. It is all a fun game. You don’t’ have to read our back and forth, but you can read this one post or just glance at the 4 comparative melodies I provide (all are “Flemish inspired” cantus melodies as per their renaissance function/origins, yet I sourced these particular ones from Baroque era publications, ie they carried through the times of their respective genre, not Spanish-folk/flamenco or Arab related).
Also in that thread Romerito said “we don’t see aug2 sung in Renaissance court music”, which I showed is not correct as per musica ficta of Fuenllana (if interested). I don’t consider aug2 THAT big a deal, but it is yet another detail that is accounted for in the vihuela repertoire.
PS., if you happened to recognize or figure out where those melodies are coming from (ie., solve the riddle ), please keep it to yourself for now or drop me a PM if you want confirmation.
Yes, it’s becoming more possible to me that I do see where these melodic sequences are from. I’ll drop you a note via PM later. I have also suspected or I hear cante as not coming so much from Arabic, but maybe regionally there is more Arabic influence in the center of the Granada area and the places where there is ‘Levant’ cante. But in Solea family I hear the changes you’re talking about as something else. Your idea is very plausible the more I think about it.
I send you a standard email from my personal home address-
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