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Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
Phrygian Fetish music?
For some years there is this typical stereo type that is even in the ethnomusicology that assumes this fake or superficial Arab influence on Flamenco singing and guitar thanks to the ONE scale … and explaining how flamenco is NOT about this, has given me a huge headache. Coming from a completely opposite angle, this guy has a 1.5 hour video about why the West has this annoying stereo typical view of Middle Eastern music. I See in Flamencology this goes back as far as Solitario writing about Planeta et al., claiming “Caña”, whatever that was, and the Romance, as “Arabic” or “Moorish” which we know it likely was not anything related.
My favorite spot covers the infamous “hijaz” at 52:46, but watch from 44:15 or so.
You have touched on an interesting topic in posting this video. There no doubt are many examples of Western, "Orientalist" stereotypes of Near Eastern music--Turkish, Arabic, and Persian. Nevertheless, the narrators featured in the video seem to suggest that all Orientalists in the West misrepresent Near Eastern music to fit their preconceived ideas of how it should sound. I am no ethnomusicologist, much less one steeped in the nuances of Near Eastern music, but I would bet there are Western "Orientalists" (to continue using a term that would result in one being banned if used on an American college campus) who are very well versed in the music of the Near East.
To widen the discussion, the term "Orientalist" was first used by the French and British in the 19th century to denote one who made a study of the history and culture of Near Eastern societies: Turkish, Arab, Persian, and for the British, Indian. They were a combination of anthropologists, historians, and philologists. The term took on a pejorative cast with the publication of Edward Said's book "Orientalism" in 1978. Said was a professor of literary criticism at Columbia University. "Orientalism" was a polemic in which Said claimed that Orientalists were the cat's paws for European imperialism in the Near East. Said's book was one of the primary elements influencing the trendy "Postmodernism" in university English departments. "Orientalism" has a lot of historical mistakes, but to the "Postmodern" crowd and the Modern Language Association, it didn't matter. Bernard Lewis, a British "Orientalist" who really knew the history and culture of the Near East, shredded many of Said's arguments in debate, but Lewis was on the wrong side of the academic divide, culturally speaking.
In any case, my thoughts on viewing the video you posted returned to the debate between the Lit Crit professor Edward Said and the Near East "Orientalist" historian Bernard Lewis. It leaves me wondering if there are not Western musicians and ethnomusicologists who are very well versed in Near Eastern music, and who are not purveyors of preconceived, Western stereotypes.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Thanks for posting the link to the video. I watched the section you referenced, and it piqued my curiosity to watch more.
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For some years there is this typical stereo type that is even in the ethnomusicology that assumes this fake or superficial Arab influence on Flamenco singing and guitar thanks to the ONE scale … and explaining how flamenco is NOT about this, has given me a huge headache.
So, what, on your view, is the correct account of the influence of Arab music on flamenco?
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Phrygian Fetish music? (in reply to machopicasso)
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So, what, on your view, is the correct account of the influence of Arab music on flamenco?
The Arabs were “expelled” long before flamenco singing (as we know it today) appears. The traditional Arab music still exists. What Solitario says about flamenco in 1838 (published later) is that he was impressed or “confused” because he asks a “why” question, that the Gitano community in Andalucia, and NOWHERE ELSE in spain had preserved these Oriental melodies from, what he believed to be originating in the medieval times before 1492. He goes further to lump together the palos he observes (likely someone told him to do this, not inventing the idea on his own), into 3 categories, the Andalusian (fandango family I assume), American (Ida y vuelta?), and Arabic (Phrygian based palos we assume, Mairena’s cantes basicos, Solea Siguiriyas and derivatives). Conversely Richard Ford (also 1838 observations) equates the dance “El Ole”, related to Caña (corroborated by Solitario’s account) to INDIAN dance he was familiar with and names. So Ford sees INDIAN and Solitario sees ARABIC, influences, same exact people and music.
So we have a focus on a subset of flamenco song forms that have this supposed Arabic influence. As the gentleman in the video points out, Greek Turkish Arab Iranian Indian and Pakistani musicians (and even people!) get confused for each other from the Western perspective. George Borrow (also in 1838) had no issue distinguishing the Gypsy people in Spain as having ancient Sanskrit language and its mixed in words (from Persia etc.), as other people from India have. I don’t remember him ever confusing the musical expressions he observes (singing and guitar playing, letras etc.) as “Arabic”. He was, however much more concerned as to why CERTAIN gypsies in Spain are called “flemings”, and puts forth (imo BAD) conjectures there.
There are Indian ragas that are similar to the hijaz. So what we have to accept is that the flamenco music is a Gypsy interpretation (if not creation), and as such, has more in common with India/Pakistan than Arabic cultures. Western ignorance to nuance is a big problem here. Even in the linked video above, he gets upset about the over emphasis of hijaz however, doesn’t’ go the extra step to explain that even THAT is not right…the augmented 2nd (F-G# in a melody going E-F-G-#A back down) is “softened” in the performance of hijaz that it would be just as fair to equate it to Western E-F#-G-A back down. Because both the real notes are between F-F# and G and G#, therefore it is arbitrary what direction you shift the interpretation. If you don’t exaggerate that big gap between F and G#, then the “exotic oriental” quality is lost. And that is point of contention…that is NOT even a fair representation of Eastern music.
So regardless what happened 800 years ago with the Arabs in Spain, we need to look at the gypsy people and their musical tendencies…and everywhere we look we see them as very specific interpreters of various regional musics, always putting a certain gypsy “stamp” on their interpretations. At the same time they don’t have this “Arabic flamenco” going on anywhere else than Andalucia (ie they did not bring it with them). What follows is that Westerners that can’t discern the difference between hijaz and harmonic minor, will assume that the ancient Arab presence in Andalucia MUST be the reason for a Phrygian melody coming out of their mouths, a hugely myopic conclusion that real investigators can’t seem to find a basis for in reality. Final conclusions nowadays seem to be Gitanos are special interpreters of Andalusian music.
While this is fine for me to get rid of the Arabic aesthetic issues, it does nothing to explain the songs and their specific FORMAL STRUCTURES, which are neither Arabic based, nor Indian raga based, but “something else” entirely, with only that (to quote our guy in the video) superficial “F-ing Hijaz!!!” Aesthetic that continues to trick Westerners that Flamenco must have Camel desert cobra Turbin origins.
I hate it when my pet theories are dispensed with by logic.
I didn’t watch the video.
That being said one must be careful as there is a lot of anti Muslim/Arabic/Brown people revisionist history reshaping going on. Hard for us proles here on the ground to sift through the bull ****.
Ricardo, I do feel like your explanations have attained a more accessible focus as you sift through the information, it’s getting harder and harder to disregard your hypotheses. Looking forward to where you take this historical exploration of Flamenco.
HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
The Arabs were “expelled” long before flamenco singing (as we know it today) appears.
Yet, cultural elements from their overall culture remained in language, dress, food, place names, and even some behavioral and symbolic culture.
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So we have a focus on a subset of flamenco song forms that have this supposed Arabic influence. As the gentleman in the video points out, Greek Turkish Arab Iranian Indian and Pakistani musicians (and even people!) get confused for each other from the Western perspective. George Borrow (also in 1838) had no issue distinguishing the Gypsy people in Spain as having ancient Sanskrit language and its mixed in words (from Persia etc.), as other people from India have. I don’t remember him ever confusing the musical expressions he observes (singing and guitar playing, letras etc.) as “Arabic”. He was, however much more concerned as to why CERTAIN gypsies in Spain are called “flemings”, and puts forth (imo BAD) conjectures there.
The language was already substantially changed from its Indic roots. It is called paraRomani by some scholars of Romani studies. ParaRomani is basically of Sanskrit origin but adapted to local syntax, in this case, Spanish syntax. It is close to being extinct now but there are some people that are trying to revive it (scholars trying to keep it alive through different kinds of social programs that help communities that have lost their culture for one reason or another...hmm, scholars doing good? who knew?).
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There are Indian ragas that are similar to the hijaz. So what we have to accept is that the flamenco music is a Gypsy interpretation (if not creation), and as such, has more in common with India/Pakistan than Arabic cultures.
So you are not even taking into account the difference between the concepts of scale and mode in Western thought and how Indic or Arabic culture either has similar terms or how terms that seem similar might in fact be very different? Bhairavi is similar to Phrygian on the surface level. There is no Phrygian dominant-near "scale" in Indic music.
Bhairavi is similar to Hijaz Kar Kurd is similar Double Harmonic Major.
Flamenco is built on phrygian and phrygian dominant so Indic roots based solely on scale would not be likely.
Furthermore, there are some traits of Arabic music found in flamenco that I cannot address here, traits that are not found in Hindustani classical music. Since the gitanos came from modern-day Northwestern India/Pakistan there are many groups who might have similar music but I have not found the trait specifically that is found in both Arabic and flamenco.
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What follows is that Westerners that can’t discern the difference between hijaz and harmonic minor, will assume that the ancient Arab presence in Andalucia MUST be the reason for a Phrygian melody coming out of their mouths, a hugely myopic conclusion that real investigators can’t seem to find a basis for in reality. Final conclusions nowadays seem to be Gitanos are special interpreters of Andalusian music.
It would be equally myopic to say that it came from India based on the same criteria.
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While this is fine for me to get rid of the Arabic aesthetic issues, it does nothing to explain the songs and their specific FORMAL STRUCTURES, which are neither Arabic based, nor Indian raga based, but “something else” entirely, with only that (to quote our guy in the video) superficial “F-ing Hijaz!!!” Aesthetic that continues to trick Westerners that Flamenco must have Camel desert cobra Turbin origins.
The formal structures are partially based in their poetic structures. The tercet goes back to Cervantes' time. The quatrain seem to arise and get popular in the nineteenth century. Harmonically, there is much more gray area because the harmony and melody would shape eachother over time. I can't go into detail for reasons I already hinted at, but, there are good reasons to believe that the syllabic structure of the poetry affected how the compas evolved. Whatever the case, I find it dubious at best, that flamenco melodies arrived from anywhere other than Spainand its Andalusian past. I suppose an argument could be made but to dismiss the Arabic contribution (NOT INVENTION) to the overall form, content, and aesthetic is very premature.
Furthermore, there are some traits of Arabic music found in flamenco that I cannot address here,...
I'm not sure why you couldn't elaborate in your original post, but if you can now, that would be helpful. What are the traits in flamenco that are allegedly distinct to Arabic music?
Yet, cultural elements from their overall culture remained in language, dress, food, place names, and even some behavioral and symbolic culture.
Yes, that is why I put “expelled” in quotes. What I was getting at was that Arabs are STILL HANGING OUT in Spain, and so would their music. There would be no need for it to magically morph in a bar somewhere in Andalucia, and only there even if that would make more sense. “An Andaluz, a Jew, a gypsy, and an Arab walk into a bar…..out comes a new music called Flemish”. Make sense? In more explicit terms: If flamenco has Arabic music elements or basis, and considering how orthodox flamenco is so self corrective (ie artists/aficionados hold on strong to its orthodox traditional elements and purity), wouldn’t the local Arab musician correct the artists when they took the music off the rails?? Or at least point to what that specific thing is or should be?
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It is close to being extinct now but there are some people that are trying to revive it (scholars trying to keep it alive through different kinds of social programs that help communities that have lost their culture for one reason or another...hmm, scholars doing good? who knew?).
Yes I think we discussed this before. I am curious what they think of Borrow’s explanation and dictionary in Zincali. I get that many gypsy communities (excuse me, Roma, though all my friends want me to call them Gypsy), have lost whatever it once was, however my friends (let me call them clients since they are hiring me on a regular basis) are openly speaking it amongst themselves, and loudly on the mic such that the little kids even understand it. Even they can contrafact (change lyrics) of popular song into it such that the group understands the “new song”. Saw them do that with an Adel song for example, everybody laughing. If it is corrupt so be it, but Borrow’s dictionary has been occasionally helpful to me. To be totally honest, I get the feeling from my friends that they actually don’t want the Gache to KNOW their language or that they are using it quite openly, and that I have been exposed to its usage only because of the trust level I have built over 25 years. When i met one of these guys back then, I had no clue they could speak that language. It was not until a wedding during the pandemic that I noticed it.
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So you are not even taking into account the difference between the concepts of scale and mode in Western thought and how Indic or Arabic culture either has similar terms or how terms that seem similar might in fact be very different?
On the contrary that was the entire point of the video I posted. Western people equating hijaz or raga whatever (found a different one to those you named on some YouTube educational channel) to a Western harmonic minor, and worse, that flamenco is based on this in addition to “fake Arab Hollywood desert cobra music”, and worse still, things like instruments dress and dance. In fact that was one of my points that both Ford and Solitario saw the “same type” of music the Gitanos were doing, likely Borrow as well, and the two Brits saw it as related to India (Ford by dance, Borrow my Sanskrit), and Solitario was the one talking about Arabs and Moorish influence. As the Iranian guy in the video I posted pointed out, Westerners tend to lump Middle East and South Asia together as “Oriental” music and culture, as if it is a single thing. I agree they are both VERY different from each other (aka there is Nuance in the scale that is not noticed by Westerns and runs the risk of being conflated). Vocal inflection can go with this (singing style).
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Flamenco is built on phrygian and phrygian dominant so Indic roots based solely on scale would not be likely.
I would not say it is “built” on either scale. It is built on set melodies and accompanying chordal structures that are very specific and not improvised, altered, or recreated other than interpretations in the moment that are quite subtle. Instrumental variations are similarly bounded but a bit more open to creative directions minus the cante (which some purists don’t even accept if we are honest). This means the music is based on WESTERN concepts, since Eastern musics are not like that, that we know of today. I agree, Indic roots not likely. However the same guy has this other video (LINK Below) where he does an “ancient melody” he claims as medieval known from sources of 13 cent. Then soon after says “just kidding, it’s Ariana Grande”, and that main point is that the interpretation of a melody or song structure can actually HIDE its origin if you don’t know any better. So what I am getting at is whatever flamenco source is, it is filtered through an interpretation and aesthetic that is neither ARAB nor INDIC, but rather GITANO specifically, and therefore, a bit closer to things INDIC than the Arab, if for no reason other than genetics. And of course there are payos that sing flamenco well, no more Arabic than the gitano or Sephardic person (and that is even an other can of worms we haven’t touched).
10:06
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Furthermore, there are some traits of Arabic music found in flamenco that I cannot address here, traits that are not found in Hindustani classical music.
So this is the interesting thing, because likely we have something more concrete to argue about than superficial aesthetics and interpretations. I too have what I think is the source of formal structure, so at a later date we can compare notes on these issues.
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It would be equally myopic to say that it came from India based on the same criteria.
Agreed, I covered it above. I am saying not the music, but the interpretation, if even there is anything to THAT. Talking about gypsy “stamp” they put on any music they adopt world wide. I am saying I notice a general trend, but of course in detail that might be even not fair. but it is at least “more fair” than to claim they have learned the Arab techniques of interpretation, whateve they might be.
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The formal structures are partially based in their poetic structures. The tercet goes back to Cervantes' time. The quatrain seem to arise and get popular in the nineteenth century.
And here I totally agree, and Norman astutely noticed in that other thread that expanded letras to the Tercet (such as a 6 line poem) could fit the form in the sense repeating the cambio and conclusion musically is wide open for MORE text. And this exactly where my research overlaps with your guys thinking (finally) and what I am claiming is that I have found poetic forms and music that “work” as contrafact (a thing gypsies still do if you saw my above) or change the language/lyric set, but keep the poetic math and FORM….but it is a bit older than CERVANTES, even. But I think his aunt is related to the historical subject, coincidentally.
EDIT: Actually, I am curious if you have found any specific Tercets from that time that overlap with specific flamenco letras? For example like the quatrains in George Borrow that are found in Demofilo (implying Borrow most likely witnessed flamenco proper)? (And if you don’t know of these i can give you the 2 examples I am familiar with). I have found couplets or two lines that have similar form lyrically…yet don’t work musically for me (from the pre-cervantes time). I have seen a flamencologist demonstrate an old Romance, but those can be applied to almost any form depending on how they get pulled apart musically. I am looking for something more specific.
“An Andaluz, a Jew, a gypsy, and an Arab walk into a bar…..out comes a new music called Flemish”. Make sense?
That's not how culture works. But your scenario makes sense if you don't take the "flemish" thing literally. Steingress makes the best case I have seen to date about why flamencos are called flamencos and how that was not synonymous with gitano. And he also clears up, based on critiques that Schuchardt made of Demofilo's work, the language issues.
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wouldn’t the local Arab musician correct the artists when they took the music off the rails?? Or at least point to what that specific thing is or should be?
You are thinking in absolutist terms. There is a vast difference between arab music being influential upon and even being borrowed in the emergence of flamenco, and Arabs creating it. No one has ever argued in the entire history of flamenco that Arabs, or Berbers, or Moors invented flamenco. Rather, the point is that there are elements of Arabic music that directly influenced flamenco.
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wouldn’t the local Arab musician correct the artists when they took the music off the rails?? Or at least point to what that specific thing is or should be?
How a group self identifies and how it historically formed and migrated are two different issues.
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the little kids even understand it.
This in Spain. They are Spanish gitanos? Do you speak Calo fluently or well enough that you can distinguish it from Romani? You realize that Calo is already a mix. If they are speaking it, great. Then it is not lost. Several articles by people who also have established relationships open enough to talk about it, suggest otherwise, but I hope they are wrong.
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On the contrary that was the entire point of the video I posted. Western people equating hijaz or raga whatever (found a different one to those you named on some YouTube educational channel) to a Western harmonic minor, and worse, that flamenco is based on this in addition to “fake Arab Hollywood desert cobra music”, and worse still, things like instruments dress and dance.
What is the difference between scale and mode to you? What are the nearest terms for those in Arabic and Hindustani music? (Not Iranian/Persian) I won't defend Orientalism and most social scientists have taken Said's critiques into account. I, for one, sent an e-mail to an ethnomusicologist who wrote a short book on cross-cultural musical analysis in which she talked about flamenco and utilized the double harmonic major scale as an example. She called it the "Oriental" scale (should she have known better?) but the "Oriental scale is really the fifth mode of the double harmonic major 9Hijaz kar in Arabic terms). Knowing a scale or mode in practice is skillful/procedural knowledge. Knowing it by being able to explicitly state it is declarative/theoretical knowledge. I don't know if you are still working on your article but I would venture to bet that you learned a lot in the writing process because it is a different way of thinking through things.
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I would not say it is “built” on either scale. It is built on set melodies and accompanying chordal structures that are very specific and not improvised, altered, or recreated other than interpretations in the moment that are quite subtle.
Hmm...I don't disagree. But what are the original melodies?
Theory is the use of symbolic systems to describe and explain some phenomenon, in this case music. When I say "built" I am only trying to convey what the underlying system might be.
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main point is that the interpretation of a melody or song structure can actually HIDE its origin if you don’t know any better. So what I am getting at is whatever flamenco source is, it is filtered through an interpretation and aesthetic that is neither ARAB nor INDIC, but rather GITANO specifically, and therefore, a bit closer to things INDIC than the Arab, if for no reason other than genetics. And of course there are payos that sing flamenco well, no more Arabic than the gitano or Sephardic person (and that is even an other can of worms we haven’t touched).
There is no doubt in my mind that the gitano community has been the most important group in the creation of and maintenance of flamenco. But why did it emerge in the 19th century? What were the cultural pressures, dynamics, or circumstances that led to its development.
If the Playera and Endecha are forebears of the seguiriya, then how can one say it is STRICTLY gitano? How can one acknowledge gitano creativity without denying other possible roots? Same for Solea? Gitanos did not creat cantos de Soledad, nor Soledades, nor the "Playera" which was sometimes used as a fill-in for cante jondo.
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So this is the interesting thing, because likely we have something more concrete to argue about than superficial aesthetics and interpretations. I too have what I think is the source of formal structure, so at a later date we can compare notes on these issues.
If you do, I am more than happy for you. That would be a momentous finding. I am dubious because I think formal structure was still being worked out as late as the earliest recordings of flamenco.
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Agreed, I covered it above. I am saying not the music, but the interpretation, if even there is anything to THAT. Talking about gypsy “stamp” they put on any music they adopt world wide. I am saying I notice a general trend, but of course in detail that might be even not fair. but it is at least “more fair” than to claim they have learned the Arab techniques of interpretation, whateve they might be.
Ok, we are saying similar things then. Although, I would push back by saying that there is no such thing as an ethnic voice, "x" voice, voice of the "X" people. The voz Afilla has been pushed as the ultimate flamenco voice but we only know what he might have sounded like from anecdotal accounts. The Pavon's sound nothing like el Fillo. Estrella Morente on the alegrias on her first album sounds very much like Pastora.
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And here I totally agree, and Norman astutely noticed in that other thread that expanded letras to the Tercet (such as a 6 line poem) could fit the form in the sense repeating the cambio and conclusion musically is wide open for MORE text. And this exactly where my research overlaps with your guys thinking (finally) and what I am claiming is that I have found poetic forms and music that “work” as contrafact (a thing gypsies still do if you saw my above) or change the language/lyric set, but keep the poetic math and FORM….but it is a bit older than CERVANTES, even. But I think his aunt is related to the historical subject, coincidentally.
So many questions we probably have for eachother but since we are both unpublished, it is scary to put out what might be original insights/findings. That is why I did not respond to @MachoPicasso: I can't go into detail except to say that, there are other cultures that have some musical traits that I am concerned with, but none that have had contact with Spanish music in such a way that might have influenced flamenco.
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Actually, I am curious if you have found any specific Tercets from that time that overlap with specific flamenco letras? For example like the quatrains in George Borrow that are found in Demofilo (implying Borrow most likely witnessed flamenco proper)?
No, I have not gone that far back because I think that flamenco emerged in a form we might actually consider flamenco in the later 19th century. The metaphor I use is biological. Flamenco was "Conceived in the early nineteenth century and was birthed in the Latter nineteenth.
I will say, I don't agree with Castro Buendia and others who claim that the tercet preceded the quatrain in flamenco. Although the tercet was common before Cervantes, I think the jondo forms were really born of the quatrain. That is another argument for another time.
Wow, just like old times... Bet you weren't expecting to have to chew on all this, Richard.
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Flamenco must have Camel desert cobra Turbin origins.
Ha-ha! That’s hilarious! Uh, just to be clear: laughing with you, not at you.
I’ve never been interested in this kind of conjecture, and I’ll tell you why, but please remember that I’m not trying to put anyone down, squelch ideas, damp enthusiasm or burst bubbles:
Flamenco’s origins are too far in the past. There’s not enough intact/uncontaminated evidence to draw conclusions. Before considering what might have happened in the 15th century, remember that, at the beginning of the 19th century, the Napoleonic Wars ripped apart the Bay of Cádiz—which seems a much more likely birthplace and cradle than Triana—and led to Spain’s overall decline and eventual loss of its empire.
I don’t put much faith in the first eyewitness accounts of flamenco. There’s no way to determine how much they were exposed to, how accurately they perceived/remembered their experiences, how much they actually understood or how reliable their accounts are. They were writers who wanted to sell publications. Even today, journalists on assignment make terrible mistakes (a recent article in El País about Los Gabrieles mentioned “the guitarist Manolo Chacón”). I’ll give Antonio Machado Álvarez “Demófilo” the benefit of the doubt, because his roots were local (mother and father from Seville and Cádiz, respectively), and he probably hung out with artists and aficionados. Borrow and Ford were foreigners who only visited Spain for a few years. This is crucial, because flamenco is a culture (gypsies) within a culture (aficionados) within a culture (Andalusia) within a culture (Spain), and those early witnesses were outsiders all four ways.
There’s bound to be musical coincidences because of the nature of sound, hearing and musical instruments. A 12-tone system is limited enough (it’s really more like eight or nine tones), and things are further narrowed by the fact that plenty of the mathematical possibilities just don’t sound good.
These are the main reasons why I think such conjecture is a waste of (my) time. That said, (1) I’m not an expert on these things and, in fact, haven’t read any of the research that’s been done in recent years, (2) being closed-minded about things and assuming one is always right is rarely a good idea and (3) new evidence may come to light any day, so I’m not entirely uninterested in connecting the dots.
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I am curious what they think of Borrow’s explanation and dictionary in Zincali.
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that his translation of the Bible is why so many of the Caló-Spanish dictionaries are laughably unreliable, at least insofar as learning about Caló in this corner of Spain. Maybe they said things differently in Granada.
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I get that many gypsy communities (excuse me, Roma, though all my friends want me to call them Gypsy)...
I also think “gypsy” isn’t or shouldn’t be offensive, although others will always have the final word, and “others” is a lot of different people in different parts of the world. Frankly, I think calling someone roma around here with the best of intentions could easily be misconstrued. Like walking into a bar in Mississippi and letting it be known that you’re “a friend of the negro people.”
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I get the feeling from my friends that they actually don’t want the Gache to KNOW their language or that they are using it quite openly...
This makes sense to me. It's human nature. Richard, I think you don’t like bebop (because of the drugs; correct me if I’m wrong), but there are interesting parallels to consider. I’m intrigued by this statement of Mary Lou Williams, taken from Thelonius Monk’s Wikipedia entry:
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“So, the boppers worked out a music that was hard to steal. I'll say this for the 'leeches,' though: they tried. I've seen them in Minton's busily writing on their shirt cuffs or scribbling on the tablecloth.”
Flamenco’s origins are too far in the past. There’s not enough intact/uncontaminated evidence to draw conclusions. Before considering what might have happened in the 15th century, remember that, at the beginning of the 19th century, the Napoleonic Wars ripped apart the Bay of Cádiz—which seems a much more likely birthplace and cradle than Triana—and led to Spain’s overall decline and eventual loss of its empire.
My "conclusion" is fairly simple. It is based on Antonio Mairena's use of the metallurgy metaphor. Flamenco is an "alloy" consisting of cultural elements from different social groups. The difficulty, as you note, is in trying to find what those might be, when they originated, and by whom.
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I don’t put much faith in the first eyewitness accounts of flamenco.
I would modify your insight: flamenco is a culture (musical complex) within a culture (Andaluz) consisting of multiple groups over the course of time (Sephardic/Moor/gitano/Spanish), within a culture (Spain) but note that we are using a layman's or older anthropological concept of culture.
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There’s bound to be musical coincidences
Ethnomusicologists have been wary of that for decades. The concepts of surface and deep similarity take into account superficial (i.e. coincidental) and substantial (for example, genetic or diffused) similarity.
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I also think “gypsy” isn’t or shouldn’t be offensive, although others will always have the final word, and “others” is a lot of different people in different parts of the world. Frankly, I think calling someone roma around here with the best of intentions could easily be misconstrued. Like walking into a bar in Mississippi and letting it be known that you’re “a friend of the negro people.”
I say let the people speak for themselves. In Spain, gitanos have no problem with the equivalent. However, most Roma, and scholars who work with them do have a problem with it because it is not used correctly by vast swaths of people. Many people associate it with an itinerary lifestyle instead of an ethnic and linguistic group united by a bottleneck event in the 11th century.
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I get the feeling from my friends that they actually don’t want the Gache to KNOW their language or that they are using it quite openly...
This makes sense to me.
This doesn't make sense to me. They must know that there are expert linguists who do know the language and that languages in general can now be learned on YouTube. In fact, there was a Roma channel for awhile.
Which brings up a really interesting point. Is Calo a dialect or language? If a dialect, then other Romani speakers should be able to freely communicate much as an Australian can communicate with a Brit. If a language, then Calo and Roma would be mutually unintelligible. At any rate, unless you know the language how can you be sure that they are speaking Calo or Romani?
That's not how culture works. But your scenario makes sense if you don't take the "flemish" thing literally. Steingress makes the best case I have seen to date about why flamencos are called flamencos and how that was not synonymous with gitano. And he also clears up, based on critiques that Schuchardt made of Demofilo's work, the language issues.
My bar scene is meant to show how ridiculous the concept is. It absolutely doesn’t make sense to me to be honest. If such a fusion happened that way, then why the sudden “purists” attempts to preserve the bastard child of several genres? You have to explain the strict adherence to the formal structures and adversion to variants that go “off the rails” of the tradition, and what that intuition is based on exactly? In otherwords, aficionados can’t always put the finger on it but they KNOW some cante or guitar playing is not right when they experience it. It is more than “ironic” if it were the case that this music form developed as loose and easy going fusion of elements, then suddenly it takes decades to master and build this intuition about.
Those German guys I read a couple times, as you brought it up before. I still don’t get it, or I have lost clarity regarding their conjectures. It did not impress me whatever it was but I feel bad I don’t have it in my head anymore.
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No one has ever argued in the entire history of flamenco that Arabs, or Berbers, or Moors invented flamenco.
On the contrary, that is pretty much what Solitario is assuming, and he ponders aloud how could it be that in all of Spain the Andalusians have preserved these medieval forms. I will dig up the quotes so we can discuss it more concretely if you want. I feel it is opinions like his, and others subsequently, that by the time Castro Buendia tackles it, he has no option to ignore it as it is such a pervasive thought, reinforced again and again, especially by people that can’t operate within the art form but even by some that do.
When we start peeling away the layers “ok we see nothing being done today that is the basis, but there are elements…” and we get into “such as?”, and that is where we are now. Castro says none that are clear and obvious. You claim you see some so we can eventually discuss them.
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Rather, the point is that there are elements of Arabic music that directly influenced flamenco
So that is the thing you are holding on to. Some things to think about in that regard, don’t have to answer yet:
1.DIRECTLY influenced when exactly? Hopefully before the earliest recordings. And keep in mind “directly” might require “direct evidence” vs circumstantial evidence. 2.Who might have been involved? What is the personal connection between musicians that occurred? Even if it is a conjecture it needs to be thought through. Example “these guys are known to have been working in the same mine at the same time…” that type of thing. 3. How deep are these elements? If one were to remove them totally, does the music stop functioning convincingly to the main artists and aficionados? 4. Do these elements affect specific palos only? Which ones and to what degrees?
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This in Spain. They are Spanish gitanos? Do you speak Calo fluently or well enough that you can distinguish it from Romani?
So, the answer is “no” to Spain, however the gypsies I just worked with have the same type of general traditions that the ones I have dealt with that DON’T have the language this well (that I have been exposed to anyway), and my friends from Spain, all share in common. No I don’t speak, and as I just said Borrow’s book seemed helpful. Now, I need to ask if you have read Borrows book??? He makes it clear there is only one gypsy language called “Cale” and goes through the variations in detail. He also admits some in Spain (Sevilla regions is named, which would of course be our flamenco artists) have lost it in a big way, or using corrupted versions. He seems proud to admit the language he speaks with them is Universal all over Europe and Asia that he has traveled. It is whatever that is, that seems to be what my local friends are using, as I checked a couple words in Borrows dictionary that checked out. Now, Borrows goes on and on about the ‘crabbed gitano” called “Germania” or the thieves language that is confused for and used by Spaniards and gypsies alike. Other than that I have no reference for what is the difference there, Calo vs Romani.
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Ok, we are saying similar things then. Although, I would push back by saying that there is no such thing as an ethnic voice, "x" voice, voice of the "X" people. The voz Afilla has been pushed as the ultimate flamenco voice
Right, it is technique that none the less might get picked up by a group such that you can see a collective tendency. Even Planeta is arguing with mr. Fillo about this technique via Solitario I have been discussing. It would make sense to me that if there is an Arabic vocal technique at work, vs Indian etc, then we can talk about it generally if it used in flamenco singing…however, I am noticing a general gypsy vocal technique that is lots of different music via an technique that is learned via imitation. To a western ear that could be a similar technique to the Arab one, is all I am saying, even though it is specifically 3 different things (at least).
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No, I have not gone that far back because I think that flamenco emerged in a form we might actually consider flamenco in the later 19th century. The metaphor I use is biological. Flamenco was "Conceived in the early nineteenth century and was birthed in the Latter nineteenth.
Well, biology is very much based on evolution. And paleontology has relied on fossils that have HUGE gaps in the timeline. Luckily there is genetics that help corroborate sometimes. On the one hand it is fair to not jump to conclusions until all lineage has been constructed. On the other, it is a huge disservice to point to only the GAPS in the fossil record as a reason to give up looking further back for clues. It would make sense, to me anyway, to try to do BOTH at the same time. That next stepping stone could be hiding somewhere no one thought to look.
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I will say, I don't agree with Castro Buendia and others who claim that the tercet preceded the quatrain in flamenco. Although the tercet was common before Cervantes, I think the jondo forms were really born of the quatrain. That is another argument for another time.
If we ever agree upon what I have found, your instincts are correct. Further, the concept of classification (Joaquin de Paula 1,2,3) as an orthodox “sequence” is relevant to what i am seeing historically. Meaning there is a reason to do the musical form of quatrain before the transitional tercet, and to end with the macho.
Sorry this is out of order:
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What is the difference between scale and mode to you?
Scale is a sequence of notes, could be a basis of a musical system or tuning system, etc. A mode is a “discipline specific key center or melodic sequence”, ie, a huge loaded term with tons of contradictory baggage if you want to equate two different genres. Example “double harmonic major” is NOT tuned like the hijazkar so only loosely analogous to pitch intervals, however, not ever to be used the same way. The “scale” thing can be used to improvise or create new melodies up down however, where as the Makkam equivalent is more like a functional phrase or falseta type thing, based on traditional practice and preordained set melodies. Hence removed from the discipline should not be talked about as equivalent for fault of being misleading. Raga is an other loaded term that should not be removed from its discipline. Safer to simply admit, “no it is neither THAT scale, nor THAT Makam” whatever they might be.
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Hmm...I don't disagree. But what are the original melodies?
Theory is the use of symbolic systems to describe and explain some phenomenon, in this case music. When I say "built" I am only trying to convey what the underlying system might be.
Never said “original” I said “SET” melodies, that don’t change very much. The work of the Solers and others that have classified cantes in various ways are excellent objective methods of defining your question. If we can’t agree on what is a cante, then we have no melody to discuss, and one is free to claim it a raga or hijaz or minor scale, random improvisation, etc. Cante is none of those things, it is specific melodies first and foremost that could be sung to one syllable “la” if you want but hold their clear identity to those that know them.
Then to describe the rest of the structure you have specific preordained chords, not scales, that function to punctuate lines of verse and are just as specific as the melodies. I would accept that chords are also scales or vocal lines coming together vertically, but collectively they don’t spell a single scale or two. Together these define the formal structures musically, and accept various poetry to apply, also looking to be somewhat set in stone, however, can be interchanged with the set melodies and chords at will (improvised in loose terms, like falsetas are improvised in performance). Lines of verse can be cleverly delivered in various ways that affect the overall structure, but do not affect or change the specific melodic lines and punctuation.
If you wanted to ignore all that and be more fundamental about it, instead of “scale”, you could say “it is all based on those white keys on the piano….plus the black ones sometimes”.
Romerito: All of that directed at me? Without so much as a hello? When you quote someone exclusively like that, people will think you’re addressing them. In real life, do you just drift into people’s conversations and start yammering at one of them? Bars are full of people like that.
Wow, just like old times... Bet you weren't expecting to have to chew on all this, Richard.
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Flamenco must have Camel desert cobra Turbin origins.
Ha-ha! That’s hilarious! Uh, just to be clear: laughing with you, not at you.
That was from the video I posted at top, where the guy was so annoyed at western depiction of Eastern music, there are tons of funny things in there even if he sounds like a broken record after a while.
You bring up a bunch of great insights I will try to address later. I have to get a siesta before the gig. Above Romerito has quoted both you and I so, I don’t think it is all directed at you, but rather what we have both said so far. Anyway, more to come! Cheers.
My bar scene is meant to show how ridiculous the concept is. It absolutely doesn’t make sense to me to be honest. If such a fusion happened that way, then why the sudden “purists” attempts to preserve the bastard child of several genres? You have to explain the strict adherence to the formal structures and adversion to variants that go “off the rails” of the tradition, and what that intuition is based on exactly? In otherwords, aficionados can’t always put the finger on it but they KNOW some cante or guitar playing is not right when they experience it. It is more than “ironic” if it were the case that this music form developed as loose and easy going fusion of elements, then suddenly it takes decades to master and build this intuition about.
Those German guys I read a couple times, as you brought it up before. I still don’t get it, or I have lost clarity regarding their conjectures. It did not impress me whatever it was but I feel bad I don’t have it in my head anymore.
"Right" to whom? To them, in the moment in 2024? I am sure Montoya would claim that much of flamenco is not really flamenco. Same for Agujetas or Chocolate. I bet Planeta would be like "WTF is this Agujetas kid singing...he sounds like you Fillo."
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1.DIRECTLY influenced when exactly? Hopefully before the earliest recordings. And keep in mind “directly” might require “direct evidence” vs circumstantial evidence. 2.Who might have been involved? What is the personal connection between musicians that occurred? Even if it is a conjecture it needs to be thought through. Example “these guys are known to have been working in the same mine at the same time…” that type of thing. 3. How deep are these elements? If one were to remove them totally, does the music stop functioning convincingly to the main artists and aficionados? 4. Do these elements affect specific palos only? Which ones and to what degrees?
All considered. I now understand why authors sometimes take so long to write books. Although there are freaks out there who write prolifically, most people only ever produce a few works. Including many scholars. It is very difficult and requires long and arduous thought. I often wish I majored in MT and Composition instead of Ethnomusicology because there are certain barriers to producing practical music theory and analysis.
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So, the answer is “no” to Spain, however the gypsies I just worked with have the same type of general traditions that the ones I have dealt with that DON’T have the language this well (that I have been exposed to anyway), and my friends from Spain, all share in common. No I don’t speak, and as I just said Borrow’s book seemed helpful. Now, I need to ask if you have read Borrows book??? He makes it clear there is only one gypsy language called “Cale” and goes through the variations in detail. He also admits some in Spain (Sevilla regions is named, which would of course be our flamenco artists) have lost it in a big way, or using corrupted versions. He seems proud to admit the language he speaks with them is Universal all over Europe and Asia that he has traveled. It is whatever that is, that seems to be what my local friends are using, as I checked a couple words in Borrows dictionary that checked out. Now, Borrows goes on and on about the ‘crabbed gitano” called “Germania” or the thieves language that is confused for and used by Spaniards and gypsies alike. Other than that I have no reference for what is the difference there, Calo vs Romani.
I own Borrow's book and have read it (The Zincali not the other one). The difference is the syntax. I noted above that Calo is a paraRomani. It is vocabulary from Northwestern India/Pakistan that underwent several changes, and according to one author, became an actual language while the Roma were situated in Turkey (then Anatolia) in the 10th/11th centuries. This is also why there is no such thing as Indian gitanos. The Romani became an ethnic group with a common language in Anatolia. Before that they were itinerant groups with different languages or dialects and custons forced West by the Muslim invasions of India. Although some groups have been able to keep the language alive with little some evolution, the Spanish gitanos and other groups have adapted to the syntax of local languages. So Romani unites large swaths of Roma but paraRomani is different enough that there might not be understanding. If your group is not from Spain, it is not speaking Calo and therefore it is irrelevant to the topic. Flamenco is from Spain and the Spanish gitanos (whether they created/co-created, or just interpret it).
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Right, it is technique that none the less might get picked up by a group such that you can see a collective tendency. Even Planeta is arguing with mr. Fillo about this technique via Solitario I have been discussing. It would make sense to me that if there is an Arabic vocal technique at work, vs Indian etc, then we can talk about it generally if it used in flamenco singing…however, I am noticing a general gypsy vocal technique that is lots of different music via an technique that is learned via imitation. To a western ear that could be a similar technique to the Arab one, is all I am saying, even though it is specifically 3 different things (at least).
So many things to consider. Is it technique, timbre, inflection, style, etc. Each concept adds nuance to the possible interpretations.
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Well, biology is very much based on evolution. And paleontology has relied on fossils that have HUGE gaps in the timeline. Luckily there is genetics that help corroborate sometimes. On the one hand it is fair to not jump to conclusions until all lineage has been constructed. On the other, it is a huge disservice to point to only the GAPS in the fossil record as a reason to give up looking further back for clues. It would make sense, to me anyway, to try to do BOTH at the same time. That next stepping stone could be hiding somewhere no one thought to look.
Nerd Alert: Ok, but then you run into the problem of speciation and phylogenetics (which I know very little about). And you are right back where you began (we began). Let me rephrase: "I have not gone that far back for the cante except for studying some of the early poetry of the cantos de soledad. I have however looked at the vihuelists and Baroque guitarists to try and understand how 1) chords emerged, and 2) how classical and flamenco guitars coevolved and diverged.
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Scale is a sequence of notes, could be a basis of a musical system or tuning system, etc. A mode is a “discipline specific key center or melodic sequence”, ie, a huge loaded term with tons of contradictory baggage if you want to equate two different genres
Agreed. However, cross-cultural analysis has to start somewhere and it often begins with finding terms with similar meanings and usages even if not perfectly translatable.
Additionally, this is an argument made by ethnomusicologists in the 70s and 80s. I would push back and say that if you are looking for common ancestry you have to sift through the "genetic" material. Just because Hijazkar is microtonal does not mean that it could not be a reference point for flamenco. Bhairav is also microtonal and flamencos do not practice microtonality in the same way, if at all. So, you have two similar scales that are not used in the same "modal" way. How do account for flamenco sharing that scale then, superficial as it might be. You only have two options: homologous or analogous evolution - common ancestry or adaptation to local conditions. Also, there are concepts in both Hindustani and Arabic music that can be informative so long as one communicates where their pitfalls and potentials lie in cross-cultural anlaysis.
Romerito: All of that directed at me? Without so much as a hello? When you quote someone exclusively like that, people will think you’re addressing them. In real life, do you just drift into people’s conversations and start yammering at one of them? Bars are full of people like that.
Sorry. I thought we were past hello and I thought this was a forum. Excuse my decorum...that is why I don't come here often. I drink with those I know but, occasionally yammering in real life has led to fond friendships. Depends on what you yammer about I guess.
. I would push back and say that if you are looking for common ancestry you have to sift through the "genetic" material. Just because Hijazkar is microtonal does not mean that it could not be a reference point for flamenco.
But when you add it to how it specifically functions, the two details start to out weigh, greatly, the correlation. You are left with that “superficial similarity” thing, and it gets worse from there. As a starting place it is fine of course, but those divergences matter just as much as when a mentor cantaor tells you “it is not flamenco”….it is for some actual reason that you have to figure out, because as trivial as you might think at first, it turns out actually is an important detail.
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Bhairav is also microtonal and flamencos do not practice microtonality in the same way, if at all.
Yes, again, the “sruti” is NOT trivial in practice. You are doing music wrong and annoyingly so if you haphazardly apply the wrong intonation. It takes training as does flamenco. Lots of it.
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So, you have two similar scales that are not used in the same "modal" way.
Correct, and therefore trying to correlate them is only good for the person expert in one or the other that needed the analogy to know exactly why they are divergent.
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How do account for flamenco sharing that scale then, superficial as it might be.
We don’t have that obligation. Only someone first conjecturing “Arab music must be related” needs to do that, since we have already established they are different “enough” to not be correlated themselves. In other words, if you wanted to claim that flamenco has Arabic origins, you could look at the dozens of more popular makkams in Arabic music (as the guy in the video says, why that F ing hijaz again and again!) that would relate to Alegrias say (tons more major scale Rast type melodies at work). One SHOULD do that FIRST. But instead it is that exotic thing everyone focuses on. That is the guy’s point in the video too. It is literally “a trap” that everyone falls into. Me too, early on.
Sorry. I thought we were past hello and I thought this was a forum. Excuse my decorum...that is why I don't come here often. I drink with those I know but, occasionally yammering in real life has led to fond friendships. Depends on what you yammer about I guess.
It’s your bait-and-switch strategy or maybe general confusion of facts. The rondeña thread a few years back was enough for me. I’d rather not engage with you and I don’t read your posts. I scanned the last one (May 24 2024 19:19:31), just to see if you’d addressed Ricardo, too (you didn’t). Go play with him.
Sorry Norman for the delay in responding. It was too heavy a subject and I was busy this weekend but it stayed on my mind.
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Wow, just like old times... Bet you weren't expecting to have to chew on all this, Richard.
No matter what it looks like to the foro going folks here, that Romerito and I are doing the boring back and forth argument that never ends, we actually took several subjects offline and the discussion was VERY amicable over face to face Skype etc. It was MUCH longer and more nerdy and in depth however. . So the fact he joined in was surprising but his responses to what I initially commented are not really.
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Flamenco’s origins are too far in the past. There’s not enough intact/uncontaminated evidence to draw conclusions. Before considering what might have happened in the 15th century, remember that, at the beginning of the 19th century, the Napoleonic Wars ripped apart the Bay of Cádiz—which seems a much more likely birthplace and cradle than Triana—and led to Spain’s overall decline and eventual loss of its empire.
I was totally the exact same back in say 2019 right before the pandemic. I was pretty much dubious about any flamencology because I never liked what I had glanced at in literature and some of the writers had not yet demonstrated to know flamenco properly. For example, something like a concert review: Now a days someone watched a show and gives their review either in print or verbally. Thanks to modern tech, I often can check the source video and realize what REALLY occurred! So I extrapolated this concept back in time and decided early that before the audio captures of the 1890s or so, we have zero, nada, about what happened. Impossible to know from a concert review or other sources, even transcriptions. So I love the classification stuff, where the farthest back a conjectured creation goes is to a dubious “creator” of some cante, like Mellizo say, such that even if it is WRONG, it at least functions as a legitimate place holder until more info comes to light. I have no problem with that stuff, and it all uses audio recordings that we can check as primary sources. I had a fight with a knowledgeable bailaor who was upset I was prescribing to that concept until I proved to him and some others the value of recognition as it at least assigns to recordings that are historic.
In 2020 I was looking into some music theory stuff, partly inspired by these arguments with Romerito about Phrygian that are still on going, and I stumbled across something very odd in 2021. This forced me to go looking, therefore, in the huge amount of literature on the subject of flamencology and I slowly changed my opinion. I had to come to direct grapples with the info provided by Borrow, Solitario, and others of the time period of vagueness (before audio), but honestly the thing that blew my mind is the Ocón transcription/capture of a live performance of flamenco cante. I mean, that thing was amazing, however tricky as I was frustrated by various interpretations of it. But it at least completely changed my view at what might be available as evidence.
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I don’t put much faith in the first eyewitness accounts of flamenco. There’s no way to determine how much they were exposed to, how accurately they perceived/remembered their experiences, how much they actually understood or how reliable their accounts are. They were writers who wanted to sell publications. Even today, journalists on assignment make terrible mistakes (a recent article in El País about Los Gabrieles mentioned “the guitarist Manolo Chacón”). I’ll give Antonio Machado Álvarez “Demófilo” the benefit of the doubt, because his roots were local (mother and father from Seville and Cádiz, respectively), and he probably hung out with artists and aficionados. Borrow and Ford were foreigners who only visited Spain for a few years. This is crucial, because flamenco is a culture (gypsies) within a culture (aficionados) within a culture (Andalusia) within a culture (Spain), and those early witnesses were outsiders all four ways.
Agreed, and it ties in to my earlier statement. I was surprised by Ocon so now I feel I need to be more careful interpreting Solitario or Borrow for example. There is a running time line, and that is part of the interpretation, along with other things. For example, the Maximo lopez fandango copla secures an important window between 1800-1860 where we can begin to put the puzzle pieces together. I would love to put up my translation and interpretative comments to discuss with you (and even Romerito for another perspective) because perhaps we can come to SOME consensus about what was actually observed. (I for example suspect, Ford might have plagiarized a bit from Solitario to explain better his observations, or the info is coming from a common filter, a person that informed them of the genre). Finally, things like the tracing of birth records concretely establishes a familial lineage that is likely related to the musical subject (talking about the established link of Caracol to Planeta).
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There’s bound to be musical coincidences because of the nature of sound, hearing and musical instruments. A 12-tone system is limited enough (it’s really more like eight or nine tones), and things are further narrowed by the fact that plenty of the mathematical possibilities just don’t sound good.
This is the double edged sword of musical correlations. I would love to here put up one or two concrete examples where the music character is so utterly different, while at the same time indisputable the same original source is a formal basis. Example “my way” by the gipsy kings, and “Chiquito” by Paco, where we know the non flamenco sources of these forms, but so many aesthetic details have transformed the music that they are almost unrecognizable. If we make a check list of elements that correlate so we get the “right answer” that there is a correlation, then we can apply it to what I have found, and Romerito, to see if it actually hold up or not.
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may be wrong, but my understanding is that his translation of the Bible is why so many of the Caló-Spanish dictionaries are laughably unreliable, at least insofar as learning about Caló in this corner of Spain. Maybe they said things differently in Granada.
This is an important point, but it is checkable against primary sources. Again, Romerito seems to think “Calo” is not the gypsy language that I think Borrow is claiming he knows. Borrow distinguished Cale (not Calo, so I think here is the confusion) that ALL GYPSIES IN THE WORLD speak generally, from Germania and other corruptions in Spain specifically. He makes a big deal about it such that if one is expecting the corrupt translation you are not getting that one, CALE is the Sanskrit language he describes in detail. So right there we need to straight that out. Next the Bible itself and its numerous translations are always problematic in all cultures. Borrow is a METHODIST, so before accusing him of bad translation we have to look at the materials he works from, before accusing him of “bad gypsy” speak, based only on this source.
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This makes sense to me. It's human nature. Richard, I think you don’t like bebop (because of the drugs; correct me if I’m wrong), but there are interesting parallels to consider. I’m intrigued by this statement of Mary Lou Williams, taken from Thelonius Monk’s Wikipedia entry:
You have invented some stuff here amigo. I love bepop and I love drugs. Especially alcohol and advil. I don’t need to smoke weed because all my friends do, and family members. I think I am perpetually high for free. Also I have seen cocaine all around, which I am actually concerned about and stay away from because you don’t know what chemicals are in it that cause illness….cancer etc. I have correlated a lot to that thing. Bad news, but again, I know a lot of people I respect love it. Perhaps when I get old and tired with low energy to perform, I will need it. I am not scared of it, but to use regular might be bad news. If you did not know fentanyl has been killing peoples in my neck of the woods, as they find it in the opiates etc. Saw 3 go down in November for this. Scary.
I mentioned that because I once pointed out a video of Monk to you and your only comment was, “Those guys were on drugs,” or something similar. Maybe you didn't have time for a longer response and I just assumed you didn't like bebop for that reason. In my post above, I brought up the subject because I didn't know if you'd be able to relate to my reference to bebop.
Speaking for myself, I’ll say that it’s obvious to me that Monk and most of the others used heroin (there are testimonies), and it’s a matter of fact that hard drugs destroy people’s lives. Specifically about Monk, he dealt with growing mental issues toward the end of his life (admitted by him and acknowledged by family and friends). I don’t know if heroin caused the issues, but I think it couldn’t have helped. I love the music he and other junkies created, but I think it’s a path that definitely should be avoided. That’s my opinion. And I think cocaine is almost as bad. Or maybe even worse, because the destruction isn’t as evident or as fast. I don’t like what it does to people in the short or the long term.
About the rest of your post, thanks for going into detail. As I said, I’m marginally interested but don’t have much patience for conjecture. I don’t see anything to gain in terms of musicianship, artistry or general appreciation of the music. Which isn’t to say I think you’re wasting your time. I’d rather spend my remaining years working out new ideas on the guitar, writing letras and maybe singing, although at this pace I’ll need another 20 years.
Posts: 15725
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From: Washington DC
RE: Phrygian Fetish music? (in reply to machopicasso)
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ORIGINAL: machopicasso
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...but honestly the thing that blew my mind is the Ocón transcription/capture of a live performance of flamenco cante.
For those of us not in the know, what is the Ocón transcription/capture?
Here Kitarist found the general info that explained why that I was correct about the gentleman’s unusual musical abilities. (From my perspective I felt he probably had photografic memory and total recall like Mozart and other so called “genius” composers, who were at one time child prodigies).
This post goes into depth about its contents with my interpretations etc. of what is important, where flamencology might be getting it wrong. The hyper link to the source is there, the whole book is interesting to me.
Just wanted to add that I heard the same letra used in Ocón’s “Soledad” used in Bulería por Soleá (Bulería larga melody) as sung by Agujeta el Viejo in Rito y Geografia episode “Viejos cantaores”. The fact that letras are interchangeable somewhat with different melodies and lyric delivery is not unusual. However, considering we are discussing an academic thing, a piece of evidence that potentially dates flamenco formal structures much earlier than some academics want to admit, or that the score itself is demonstrating the form is “Not yet formed” but in a “proto-transition state” when it is written down, we need to consider that Agujeta senior is not likely informed by this academic nerdery (meaning he did not pull this letra from the available score or Demofilo sources that he studied), and is simply expressing the traditional thing he knows since he was young (meaning, Ocón had captured a traditional letra and application that is actually what we know as flamenco today, and Agujeta regurgitating the same letra is just part of the tradition already in place for a long time).
I mentioned that because I once pointed out a video of Monk to you and your only comment was, “Those guys were on drugs,” or something similar. Maybe you didn't have time for a longer response and I just assumed you didn't like bebop for that reason. In my post above, I brought up the subject because I didn't know if you'd be able to relate to my reference to bebop
Oh, ok, well I went back and looked for the email. I found it. The way it went was that you shared with me a video of Monk, and that you were impressed with this playing/harmony, having never listened to him, then proceeded to explain his personal back story and issues with fellow musicians, implying a problem with mental illness he had. What I said was that those guys (meaning all the top cream boppers, as far as I have read in biographies) were into HARD drugs, meaning, yes, heroine. And the superficial issues of bizarre behavior exhibited by otherwise disciplined and dedicated instrumental masters, was explained by “it was the drugs talking”, not that they were all crazy. (I put “crazy” in quotes for a reason). So this thing about my opinion and drugs had everything to do with their behavior, as you laid it out for me, and ZERO to do with their music or how I felt about their music. It was not ALL I wrote either, but I further explained how I noticed, sadly, parallels in the Flamenco world, where the drugs, not the music, was ruling their lives, ie, dictating their behavior. For whatever reason you misread what I wrote as some derogatory put down of the drug culture and music, which is not what I expressed at all.
Now, perhaps it is not fair of me to correlate hard drug use and mental illness, in which case YES, I am being unfair by blaming it all on the substance abuse if there are other factors. It is just that based on the biographies I read (centering on Miles Davis and crowd), the musicians that had “cleaned up”, seemed to have turn arounds in their quality of life and interactions. So, I am thinking in hindsight maybe that was the explanation for the behavior in general. To be fair we would have to go case by case.
And the only Phrygian thing there is the hijaz al Kabir, again I think tuning is important (please note that someone has equated hijaz proper to the Mixolydian, as I explained earlier could be a viable western equivalent just as “wrong” as Phrygian dominant is).
Here you can hear how it manifests, all too briefly at spots like 1:40 and at the end of the piece. The aug. 2nd is not striking in the melody at all (F nat to G#) in the early parts, like I said it is so much soften (F is slightly raised, G# flat), it loses the “fake Arabic Hollywood desert camel” sound altogether and sounds more “happy” as song, mostly A major (relatively speaking. Transposed down to G then). In this sense, the type of musical change that occurs in songs like Alegrias de Cordoba, therefore, one could argue a superficial relationship.
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