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New Generation
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JasonM
Posts: 2058
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore
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 RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Flamenco turns out to be a huge world of education that is all consuming. This is not like Rock guitar or something where the new kid on the block makes an album, and then a year later after the “tour” the record company is demanding the follow up creation. No, this music is so rich that when young people appear on the scene and start working, there is not much time for displaying “new” material. It is a lot of refining what has already been presented. Singers, dancers, and guitarists. People like Paco or Vicente are doing something very rare within the genre…that is continually reinventing things and presenting material. Nuñez tried to provide an outlet for new guitarists with his recording projects (Nueva escuela), and after a generation of players put out interesting new material, they all disappeared…or rather went BACK to the traditional practice. So stop putting false expectations on artists like that.
I was also thinking something similar. There have been so many young guitarist that are "up and coming" and then after one solo album they are off the solo map, unlike Paco and the big hitters. They could have gone in other directions within flamenco, but also maybe they dont in fact have a steady stream of good material, or novel ideas, to record another album with. But like Ricardo says, flamenco is different than Rock
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Date Dec. 12 2023 17:27:18
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Manitas de Lata
Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
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RE: Jose Manuel "El Pelirrojo&q... (in reply to JasonM)
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of course , nothing against... this isnt a "figth" just some views..
in this case , not general , his "recent" content it is none or nothing , like where hes playing (?) , just that .
Where do you go if you want to see him playing?
rather to do oneday something remark than the same stuff , and as far of records the industry changed a lot , quality or high quality its an exception.
If you see my most recent "wishlist" theres nothing new...
Diego del Gastor. El eco de unos toques - Angel Sody de Rivas
Jerónimo Maya - Pureza y solera
Niño Seve - Luna de la Judería
José Fermín Fernández - De La Unión a Córdoba
El Amir - Andalucía
Niño de Pura - Pura gloria
Tomatito - Soy flamenco
Diego (morao) , josele , Rey , are sell out
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Date Dec. 12 2023 19:24:13
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Ricardo
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: New Generation (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
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As someone who used to have to defend modern flamenco on the internet (vast majority of the opinionated being “old schoolers” who could never help themselves but to point out that modern flamenco was “too jazzy” or “too technical”, take your pick), I have to say that this new generation as one common aspect that rubs me wrong. While they have a beautiful rhythmic expression in general, often supplying interesting twists and turns to their phrasing that I do enjoy, or rather find refreshing, it is inevitable that the expected cierres or punctuation points are drawn out, played through, or ignored entirely, producing the equivalent of a run-on sentence right up to the final remate or worse, on studio recording, a fade out. Especially in the buleria stuff, but it seems it is becoming common in general. The remates or cierres are punctuation points which are important for engagement with both other artists performing in the moment, and the audience that knows about it. This idea of delaying or diverting the expectation to a different direction was once a novel idea and worked great on certain falsetas on occasion by the modern maestros, but as a general trend it makes the music either boring, as in the narrative is lost over time, or, in my case, I am stuck feeling “unresolved” or up in the air dangling, and it doesn’t feel nice. Assuming I stick it out to the end of the piece. 
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 14 2023 11:56:52
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Ricardo
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: New Generation (in reply to Stu)
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quote:
so is this that? or is this becoming an old fuddy duddy?
Of course this is part of it. Time marches on. There is likely balance that is not exposed behind the scenes. The thing I am talking about applies to SOLO guitar playing, which typically is not the driving force of the genre anyway, it is the cante and baile more so. For example there used to be two ways for singers to play with the compas but now there are three (the third being a boxed in concept, even for baile, where instead of singing “over the bar line” the guitarist is required to slow down the tempo in spots, for drama, understanding how the melody is “tied” to the compas and the singer is dragging the tonos down with it, then suddenly resume the previous tempo). This might have evolved out of a novel example by Camaron that used to do this in Tangos with Tomatito…but to “standardize” it for all palos that have compas is unusual to me. Not sure if I am “old fashioned” in this regard, because I actually learned the much older way to accompany, very late in the game. I have honestly only had the pleasure of dealing with a few singers that sing that way anymore. I learned via baile that had already been boxed in. So not being biased old or new, I recognized the artistic superiority to the “old way” and it is shame it has disappeared. Perhaps young generations might recognized the same things like me (everything is recorded historically so why not?) and have similar feelings such that a “neo-classical” period develops where certain Old methods get employed despite whatever contemporary trends.
The danger would be that if young gen players continue the run on sentence phrasing, then at some point, percussion/palmas etc, will simply ignore cierres in general, and the flamenco compas will lose a huge unique identity. If I know in advance they are not going to do punctuation, I will simply ignore what they play at all, or won’t engage with it. I can already sense the palmeros doing this by not building up with the phrases, they just play “flat” and ignore what direction the guitar moves in. I remember Yerai doing a well known phrase in a cool new off time manner and the cajon and the palmero had to turn his head away because everything was twisted…at least he brought it back in with some cierre, but when they STOP doing the closing and stay “off track”, well, the head turn away will be symbolic of the music in general. Presently it is up in the air what might happen in the future.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 15 2023 12:08:47
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Ricardo
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: New Generation (in reply to JasonM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
quote:
The remates or cierres are punctuation points
Agree, Some of these guys sound like they are almost just noodling around! When I first got into flamenco, I thought the cierre broke the flow of the music too much. Probably because I wasn’t used to this concept, but it also depended on the player. Now I’m just sort of used to it. If these new guys can omit cierre tastefully, I’m for it. But most of the time they do indeed sound like run on sentences. Especially the remate, then are you even flamenco, bro?
The “fancy remate” was becoming a thing with tomatito, Gerardo, and Vicente generation. Like mandaito of Vicente, he does a more interesting cierre each time until the fancy one at the end (before the letra). In fact is was the “cool thing” that each guitarists was developing to put a personal stamp on, and even Paco was messing with that on Cosita buenas. But then the next gen comes along and ignores that completely with the run on sentence thing. As I said, in some falsetas it is engaging and cool, a novel idea. But when it is the entire piece, that is the issue, for me anyway.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 20 2023 18:23:14
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