what do you all think of this 1965 Juan Pimentel

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darylcrisp

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008

what do you all think of this 1965 J...

i have purchased from this shop two other steel string guitars and spoken with the owner a couple times. he is a retired physical Therapist and has the shop out of his love for music and especially steel string guitars.

This Juan Pimentel was owned and played for many years by a musician who died 5 yrs ago and the widow brought 5 guitars to this shop to sell for her.
I live in Ky, the shop is in Ca, so i cannot lay hands on. I will say the shop owner has always been extremely honest and forth coming with any info.

i will link the guitar listing and you can see two videos. Larry also sent me a picture of the back side of the bridge that is lifting. He said he is not sure if it had been repaired in the past or if this is the first time it is lifting. The Golpadores are lifting at the rear near the front of the bridge and along the edges-no big deal. guitar weighs 3 lbs 2 oz.

I can fix the bridge lift by removing, doing proper clean up of area and reglue.

he said getting it in tune with the friction pegs can be a job, but i'm thinking due to age and use they may be slipping and just need some care-either larger fitted pegs or maybe a liner in the original holes?
the other option is i can fit Peghedz tuners but i would try the friction pegs for a while because i have never had those.

He told me other than years of use the guitar and neck(no bow, straight) play great and sounds really good.

so what do you all think on the price and the tone from the video. i think its an interesting guitar and definitely has a long history. a little work and it could be a lifer.

https://organicsoundsguitars.com/collections/other-brands/products/juan-pimentel-flamenco-guitar-1965

bridge lift in rear center

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2023 1:01:16

darylcrisp

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

or
for just a little more $ i can get either a Blanca or Negra Navarro Concert model.........ready to go out the gate full speed.

i like the oldness of the Juan, but i am 63 and extremely limited on time(i do setups on the side for guitar acoustic/electric, banjo,mandolin, resonator, and weissenborn and currently have 14 instruments in the shop that need assistance) and enjoy some time each day to partake in running/cycling and working my 7 month old GSD in IGP. i also have a small farm and grow a lot of my own food(Yoga instructor and vegetarian).

if i get the Juan, i will strip it down and go over and thru it and it will be some time before i have it all together again. mortality does not rest and i want to start my Flamenco practice again asap.

i think the Navarro might be wise.

d

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2023 18:58:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

My friend was into those so I tried several. Very high bridge set up (i.e. a Classical set up), which is why they sound decent. But for flamenco, the high bridge is not fun.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2023 11:54:30

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

My friend was into those so I tried several. Very high bridge set up (i.e. a Classical set up), which is why they sound decent. But for flamenco, the high bridge is not fun.

Was your friend into Navarros or Pimentels? I dealt with Juan Pimentel fairly regularly for several years, ordering mid-range classical instruments for friends, collecting them in Mexico City. I only knew of one flamenca during that time, a first-class spruce/cypress, with some of the best pegs I ever tried. It belonged to a good friend, so I played it fairly often. It was set up so two American pennies would fit under the strings at the 12th fret, fairly low. I don’t remember the saddle height exactly, but it wasn’t much different from my ‘67 Ramirez, about 8mm.

The Pimentel was a good guitar. I thought its right hand touch was a little on the stiff side, reflecting Pimentel’s largely professional Mexican clientele. I liked my Ramirez better.

I played a 1930s Santos Hernandez blanca that Pimentel had in his shop for some French polish touchup. It was one of only two flamencas I liked better than my Ramirez, until I bought the Arcangel Fernandez in 2000. But a few expert players have told me they like the Ramirez better. Different strokes…

I’ve only played two Navarro flamencas. One was at his shop in Paracho, with a lot of traffic noise from the main street and no other guitar to compare. At the Houston dealer I compared a Navarro padre Reyes model with my ‘67 Ramirez cedar/cypress. The Navarro had new strings that had just settled in. The bass strings on the Ramirez were very old, corroded and dirty. I don’t remember the bridge saddle height on the Navarro, but the Ramirez was notably louder.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2023 11:01:19

davewphx

Posts: 126
Joined: Jul. 11 2011

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

I just measured my Navarro student flamenco blanca and the saddle height above soundboard is .380" or 9.65mm. Has 2.8mm at 12 fret for 6th string

I then measured my yamaha cg172f and it was .362" or 9.20mm. String height at 12 fret also 2.8mm.

I used a dial caliper and verified with stewart Macdonald string action gauge.

I guess they're both on the high side. Both are enjoyable to play, but they're all I know so I don't know what I'm missing. 😪

Ricardo, what techniques do you find harder on the higher action? Everything? alzapua, rasgueado?

_____________________________

Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2023 16:02:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Ah, sorry, the photo is Pimentel. Talking about those. High bridge. I never played a Blanca, so perhaps these were classical with plates. High bridge makes everything not fun. Problem was on my friends guitars, they also buzzed a lot, so he attempted to change the neck angle on one of them to lower the bridge. But it was ridiculously in vain. Anything with golpe is awkward.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2023 17:01:23

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

I think Juan Pimentel usually built domed tops. Some makers use a hollowed out solera, forcing the top down into the solera and shaping the fan braces to the resulting dome. They also thin the bridge in the middle, so it tends to pull up the top.

Is this bridge thinner in the middle? If so the dome of the top may have pulled down if the top dried out excessively and shrank cross-grain.

Are there cracks on the treble side of the top?

Of the dozen or so mostly mid-range instruments I bought from Pimentel for friends I never knew of one to crack anywhere, though I'm sure at least a few weren't kept in controlled humidity.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2023 22:06:00

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to Ricardo)

The only flamenco pro I knew of who played a Pimentel was the Spaniard David Moreno Navarro, who also played classical. (This is not the David Moreno who plays electric on Youtube.) Moreno's guitar would have been made well before this 1965, or my friend's blanca of about the same vintage.

I saw Moreno in Mexico City a few times in the mid-1960s, either at El Rincon de Goya or at Gitanerias

The guitar in this video both looks and sounds like a Pimentel.

Pimentel paid careful attention to clients' playing. His first move with a new customer was to get a guitar into their hands and to study their playing. When asked, Pimentel assured me that he did his best to build according to the customer's playing style and their expressed preferences. So Juan would have been aware of at least one flamenco's preference for a low bridge, if that were indeed the case.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2023 22:18:17

ernandez R

Posts: 742
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

When I see a saddle sticking up as high as this one on a guitar that is as old as I am I’m thinking the bridge had over rotated and she is starting to sink between the bridge and sound hole.

Not having the guitar in my hands it’s just as likely I’m wrong.

The finish on the back of the headstock looks odd: super thick and chipped off the corners?

Still a little work and she might play well for another 25 or fifty years and be a cool collectable.

Perhaps the price is nagotionable?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2023 23:24:39

darylcrisp

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

this has been interesting to hear the discussion about earlier times and this luthier.

i have not had the guitar in hand, it is in Ca and i live in Ky, so i'm only going on what the shop owner told me-no cracks(though it does look like possibly two-one under the golpadore treble side and one further outbound on the lower bout), a lot of finish wear due to play as the deceased owner was a musician and used this guitar a lot per the widow.

also asked the shop owner if he could tell what type of finish(and was it thin or thick like import poly) and he said it definitely was not thick and he could not tell what it was.

d

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2023 4:10:29

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

All the mid range classicals I bought from Pimentel were finished in sprayed lacquer--I don't know what kind. The lacquer was polished off with automobile rubbing compound, applied by Pimentel's assistants, all of whom were relatives, as far as I know.

The predominant businesses around Pimentel's shop in the Calle Dr. Martinez del Rio were auto body repair shops.

It's been a very long time, but I don't remember the finish being thick on the top, back or sides of my friend's spruce/cypress blanca.

My friend Pat Henry (RIP) and I were looking over cheap guitars in one of the big music stores in downtown Mexico City. A store clerk approached and asked whether we were interested in high end instruments. We said we were. He gave us Pimentel's business card. We went to his shop right away.

At the shop there were no instruments strung up ready to play, but there were a couple whose bridges we thumped, verifying their responsiveness. Also there was a young American, Richard Schneider, who tended to dominate the conversation. He was apprenticing with Pimentel, but spoke extensively about his plans to revolutionize guitar design. Behind Schneider's back Pimentel manifested his usual taciturnity, but occasionally rolled his eyes. We were told to return in the evening when there would be a couple of instruments strung up to play.

When we returned at dusk there was a crowd on the sidewalk. A large unglazed window opening onto the sidewalk gave a view over Pimentel's workbench, into the interior of the shop. Inside were three men in expensive suits, lounging around while Pimentel worked on the guitar of one of them.

After observing for a while, I muttered to Pat, "Those are Los Tres Reyes," a very famous trio romantico, who included the world's greatest requinto player, Gilberto Puente.

I passed a five-peso coin to a kid in the crowd, instructing him to slip into the shop and ask the musicians to play. When Pimentel finished with the guitar he handed it to its owner, Hernando Avilés, the lead singer. Avilés turned to his companions and suggested they should perform for the crowd. They complied with a few of their most popular pieces.

After Los Tres Reyes left we played a couple of instruments. Without hesitation I ordered one for a friend who had asked me to buy her a guitar in Mexico.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2023 19:41:22

darylcrisp

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Mr Jernigan
you need to write a book about those days, this sort of stuff doesn't happen anymore, too many Walmarts, Quickshops and everything is machine or robotic made nowdays.

d

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2023 7:10:34

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darylcrisp

Mr Jernigan
you need to write a book about those days, this sort of stuff doesn't happen anymore, too many Walmarts, Quickshops and everything is machine or robotic made nowdays.

d

A number of guitar makers who work by traditional methods post regularly on the "Lutherie" section of this Foro.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2023 16:39:29

estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

If it were me, I’d get the Pimentel because it’s older and needs some love.

On the bridge: probably no need to take it off. It’s peeling off in back. Check it with a knife to see how far it’s peeling up. If it’s halfway the width of the bridge, which is my guess, do a dry run with bridge clamps and press it back to the top. Then leave it a day or two. After it remembers where it goes, take the clamps up, put thinned warm hide glue to get rid of the surface tension on the dry wood surfaces, about 5 minutes of brushing some thin in there. Then use full strength warm hide glue and clamp it down.

That situation is repairable without lifting the bridge off, and it’s MUCH easier than taking it all apart and lining it up again.

By that lifting behind the bridge, the bridge is probably a flamenco bridge. I can tell the height of saddle at bridge is about 9 mm and the back of the bridge is nice and low. You can get a sense of scale by the diameter of the string holes.

The pegs are probably ‘egg’ shaped. Dried over the years into an oval shape instead of a round tapered cylinder. First
thing is check how far out they stick from the headstock. And out the back of the headstock.

Here’s the dimensions you want to fit with a peg shaver. Between 23 and 25 mm from the collar of the peg to the back of the headstock.

Ask the dealer how much of the peg is sticking out the back of the headstock, if there is a lot of peg shaft behind the headstock, it’s very likely shaving the pegs and touching up the holes with a 33/1 tapered reamer will make smooth pegs. Powdered graphite and soap -

Ignore the tap plate and trim the loose ends. Only replace that if you’re trying to sell it.

I’d go for the Pimentel- don’t ‘over restore’ it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2023 9:57:46

estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to darylcrisp)

That is very likely but the original saddle, it’s not cut very well and it probably doesn’t fit well either. Replace that cut it longer and lower, bet you’ll have a good guitar.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2023 10:01:21

estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

All the mid range classicals I bought from Pimentel were finished in sprayed lacquer--I don't know what kind. The lacquer was polished off with automobile rubbing compound, applied by Pimentel's assistants, all of whom were relatives, as far as I know.

The predominant businesses around Pimentel's shop in the Calle Dr. Martinez del Rio were auto body repair shops.

It's been a very long time, but I don't remember the finish being thick on the top, back or sides of my friend's spruce/cypress blanca.

My friend Pat Henry (RIP) and I were looking over cheap guitars in one of the big music stores in downtown Mexico City. A store clerk approached and asked whether we were interested in high end instruments. We said we were. He gave us Pimentel's business card. We went to his shop right away.

At the shop there were no instruments strung up ready to play, but there were a couple whose bridges we thumped, verifying their responsiveness. Also there was a young American, Richard Schneider, who tended to dominate the conversation. He was apprenticing with Pimentel, but spoke extensively about his plans to revolutionize guitar design. Behind Schneider's back Pimentel manifested his usual taciturnity, but occasionally rolled his eyes. We were told to return in the evening when there would be a couple of instruments strung up to play.

When we returned at dusk there was a crowd on the sidewalk. A large unglazed window opening onto the sidewalk gave a view over Pimentel's workbench, into the interior of the shop. Inside were three men in expensive suits, lounging around while Pimentel worked on the guitar of one of them.

After observing for a while, I muttered to Pat, "Those are Los Tres Reyes," a very famous trio romantico, who included the world's greatest requinto player, Gilberto Puente.

I passed a five-peso coin to a kid in the crowd, instructing him to slip into the shop and ask the musicians to play. When Pimentel finished with the guitar he handed it to its owner, Hernando Avilés, the lead singer. Avilés turned to his companions and suggested they should perform for the crowd. They complied with a few of their most popular pieces.

After Los Tres Reyes left we played a couple of instruments. Without hesitation I ordered one for a friend who had asked me to buy her a guitar in Mexico.

RNJ

This is funny, Richard Schneider did revolutionize the guitar industry, for about six months. After that the revolution was over and Torres became king, again.

He had a lot of ideas, but none of it really stuck. The main problem is that he didn’t understand the bridge, and he teamed up with a physics guy named Dr. Kasha, together they bungled the guitar so badly. The Kasha / Schneider design is a royal F-up. Old Juan was right to roll his eyes.

One of the reasons I’m aggressively skeptical about tone generation and in general physics applications to guitar making is because the Kasha ideas are so bad and aesthetically unappealing I am not a ‘try to see it from all sides guy’. If you muck with the Spanish design for the guitar you’re going to lose.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2023 15:25:55

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what do you all think of this 19... (in reply to estebanana)

Several years after we first met Pimentel was interviewed in Siempre, roughly the Mexican equivalent of Life magazine.

One of the questions was about novel designs for the classical guitar. Typical of Spanish speakers, Pimentel first stated the conclusion to his answer, then elaborated.

He stated that the classical guitar had achieved its final form. Then he said that any serious young luthier might try innovations, as he had himself in his youth. But serious investigation would lead back to some version of the canonical design.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2023 18:21:45