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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to chester)
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quote:
are you saying tangos isn't in 4/4? or that siguiriyas isn't in 12/8?
btw bulerias is in 6/8 change my mind
Clearly Mark Indigo was saying that it is not definitive. For example I absolutely don’t think of tango as 4/4. First of all it would be in 8 count, but to me those counts like buleria are better felt as 8th note counts. So two bars of 2/4 where the foot is on the first or second quarter note. Same for the cousin Rumba, Tientos etc, and Tanguillo as well. 6/8 is ok for certain tanguillos however, it must be understood straight 2/4 might come into it. You might be familiar with notation of rock tunes that have a 12/8 signature however, the ‘feel” is triplets in 4/4, so at the start of the score the transcriber puts BOTH time signature, but leaves only one ever after in hopes the reader gets the point.
One might argue the 8 count pattern implies 4/4 at half tempo, but this is not correct because then you have two rhythm patterns in each bar, defeating the purpose of bar lines. Might as well measure out even longer phrases. A good example is “half compas” phrases that pass almost unnoticed (in rumba tango Tiento Tanguillo etc) until you count phrases and realize you might need a random 6/4 bar that makes no sense. So the smallest divisible unit is clearly 2/4 with 16th note groove (or triplet 8 groove in certain tanguillos).
Like wise siguiriyas is not 12 either because the pattern has an odd symmetry. Alternating odd meters of 7/8 and 5/8 makes the most sense, and not surprisingly I have seen it noted that way by musicians coming from outside flamenco traditions. The alternating 3/4 and 6/8 actually that is popular (no doubt devised by some classical guitar player or something) is erroneous as any computer play back will prove. You have to express 8th note=8th note EACH AND EVERY BAR SWITCH, in order for it to work, other wise implied tempo changes occurs each bar. Again, 8th notes are adding to 12, and therefore if you don’t want to use the odd meter option, the best would be 6/4 with special beaming application.
Bulerias is not 6/8 because 6/8 has a two beat triplet feeling. AS I explained earlier Buleria, at its root, is a fast Soleá and if you don’t have that thing baby Farruco is counting ingrained (10 count phrasing) then you simply don’t understand Bulerias period. Again, to notate it I would personally use 3/4 in the 110 bpm range, where 16ths are grooving, as that is how the feet are used by palmeros in the juerga, not in 6/8 or triplet feel. However, in the moments that the 10 count phrase manifests, there has to be some compromise going on, either you start that section from scratch as if it IS solea just super fast, with the tempo marking etc, as a single 12/4 bar (10+2), or you mark in the score where the counts align across the two bars of 3/4. Any other argument about notation I will be able to explain why it is erroneous, or compromised somehow, and that is the jist of what Mark Indigo was getting at.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Aug. 24 2023 14:10:18
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to silddx)
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quote:
quote:
In case I didn't already make it clear, I make a distinction between "time" and "time signatures". Time signatures are a convention of standard notation. The number on the top is common to lots of music, 2 time, 3 time, 4 time etc., but the number on the bottom refers to what type of written note. If the music is not written, and writing it down is not part of the practise and performance of that music, then the bottom number is irrelevant and the "time signature" is redundant.
Again, you make good points, however if there are twelve beats in a compas, but those beats have no time value, what have you got left?
Answer 1: If it's not written out in western classical music standard notation, then the question is irrelevant. If it's written down (invariably by someone else, not the flamencos themselves), then it has to conform to the standards of western classical music standard notation, but as I have already pointed out not a few times, music has been, and still is, practised for millenia all over the world by people without written music or time signatures.
Answer 2: Listen to the recording, use the "tap in" button on your (digital) metronome, that will give you the bpm.
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Date Aug. 24 2023 20:23:52
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silddx
Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London
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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
Answer 1: If it's not written out in western classical music standard notation, then the question is irrelevant. If it's written down (invariably by someone else, not the flamencos themselves), then it has to conform to the standards of western classical music standard notation, but as I have already pointed out not a few times, music has been, and still is, practised for millenia all over the world by people without written music or time signatures.
Answer 2: Listen to the recording, use the "tap in" button on your (digital) metronome, that will give you the bpm.
OK thanks, Mark.
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Date Aug. 24 2023 20:31:30
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kitarist
Posts: 1717
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to chester)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
quote:
No flamenco palo is "in" any kind of time signature, because it is not written music
are you saying tangos isn't in 4/4? or that siguiriyas isn't in 12/8?
Mark just told you what he is saying, and he is correct. Why do you then type up something else and ask him if he is saying that instead?
Time signature is a concept for writing music, and it comes with a host of assumptions(*) beyond saying how many of what kind of note value in a bar of written music. Yes, you can try to express flamenco in writing, using these concepts the best way they can fit, and we have, but no flamenco palo is "in" a time signature per se.
(*) For example at least in Western music, for accents (strong pulses) - how many and where within a bar; or tempo implications even, or vice versa- tempo implying what kind of time signature should be indicated out of several compatible ones like 2/4 vs. 4/8; or historical practice ones that are not readily apparent or deducible - like knowing that 6/8 is not just a 3/4 written differently, but implies two strong pulses, or that a bar line is placed such that a bar starts with a strong pulse/accented beat; etc..
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Konstantin
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Date Aug. 24 2023 20:32:11
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to silddx)
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quote:
the palo's time signature, for example 1&2&3&a4&a5& for Siguiriyas
sorry, but 1&2&3&a4&a5& isn't actually a time signature! But it will work fine for counting Siguiriyas....
quote:
to explain, and ingrain into the beginner,
I think these are two different things, and to ingrain compas I would recommend 3 things that have helped me:
1 get the solo compas cd/mp3 for solea, siguiriyas, whatever palo, and listen to the escobilla/rhythm with guitar tracks in the car/train/bus/walk/cycle on your commute, while walking/jogging/working out, in the kitchen cooking, chop onions in compas, just whenever you can, and practise palmas and playing compas on the guitar along with it too of course.
2 go play for a dance class, sit in with a more experienced guitarist, or find a class that doesn't have one and be prepared to get it wrong most of the time! 
3 listen to a lot of cante
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solea-Solo-Compas/dp/B000LZ5SLU/ref=sr_1_1?crid=K2NA3GMI722U&keywords=SOLO+COMPAS.+SOLEA&qid=1692907468&s=music&sprefix=solo+compas.+solea%2Cpopular%2C72&sr=1-1
https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-solea.html
https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7802.html
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000LZ66B6/ref=dm_rwp_pur_lnd_albm_fr
https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-siguiriyas-y-martinetes-ii-en.html
https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7788.html
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Date Aug. 24 2023 20:59:47
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silddx
Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London
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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to mark indigo)
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This is really helpful, thanks, Mark.
quote:
quote:
to explain, and ingrain into the beginner,
I think these are two different things, and to ingrain compas I would recommend 3 things that have helped me:
1 get the solo compas cd/mp3 for solea, siguiriyas, whatever palo, and listen to the escobilla/rhythm with guitar tracks in the car/train/bus/walk/cycle on your commute, while walking/jogging/working out, in the kitchen cooking, chop onions in compas, just whenever you can, and practise palmas and playing compas on the guitar along with it too of course.
2 go play for a dance class, sit in with a more experienced guitarist, or find a class that doesn't have one and be prepared to get it wrong most of the time!
3 listen to a lot of cante
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solea-Solo-Compas/dp/B000LZ5SLU/ref=sr_1_1?crid=K2NA3GMI722U&keywords=SOLO+COMPAS.+SOLEA&qid=1692907468&s=music&sprefix=solo+compas.+solea%2Cpopular%2C72&sr=1-1
https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-solea.html
https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7802.html
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000LZ66B6/ref=dm_rwp_pur_lnd_albm_fr
https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-siguiriyas-y-martinetes-ii-en.html
https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7788.html
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Date Aug. 25 2023 17:57:49
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm pat... (in reply to chester)
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quote:
don't get me wrong i enjoy geeking out and "arguing" over musical minutia as much as the next person but to come in to a discussion about which palos are simplest in terms of meter and say that THERE ARE NO TIME SIGNATURES IN FLAMENCO seems a little silly to me and before i made assumptions i wanted to clarify whether mark had a point or if this was another "flamenco was created by magical illiterate gypsies and the rules of music don't apply to it" moment.
It's not "geeking out", pedantry or silly to point out that flamenco is not written music, and therefore no palo has an inherent time signature, that anyone who transcribes it in standard notation has to make a choice about what time signature to use, and there are a variety of opinions and choices about the "best" option in each case. Ricardo is way ahead of me on this, but I have come across enough problems and anomalies to realise that there is a reason that no one time signature seems to completely fit any compás as practised.
You also don't seem to have understood the point about time signatures that I seem to have to have made over and over again [and now resorting to wikipedia, as maybe you will take it from another source]; "The time signature is a convention in Western music notation to specify how many of a particular note value are contained in each measure (bar). The time signature is a notational device representing the meter, an auditory feature of the music."
Rhythm and time signature are not the same thing, because as I have also already said, "People have been making music for thousands of years without standard notation or time signatures, and still do in many musical cultures: North and South Indian classical music, Persian, Arabic, Turkish/Ottoman classical music (there are other "classical" musics, but it's quite a list, if you don't know it already, and you're interested, check out "The Other Classical Musics: Fifteen Great Traditions" by Michael Church), and folk music all over the world. And flamenco!"
It's not "geeking out", pedantry or silly for a very good and practical reason. If a beginner thinks that they will need to spend time learning to read standard notation in order to learn to play flamenco guitar, then they are gonna waste a lot of time learning to sight read when they could be developing their ear. Whenever I have taken group classes/workshops (in the UK) the teacher demonstrates and the students learn by listening and watching. You need ear for that, and reading skills are irrelevant because no sheet music is supplied. Flamenco has been, and still is, an oral culture, so if you want to take lessons in Spain, and learn from the source, the teacher will throw stuff at you, often without counting, and if you are dependent on scores you will be lost. If you really want to get compás ingrained one of the best ways is to play compás for dance classes, for which no scores will be provided. etc. etc.
As for "flamenco was created by magical illiterate gypsies and the rules of music don't apply to it" I think that's your fantasy, not mine... 
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Date Aug. 26 2023 18:03:03
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