RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Full Version)

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chester -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 6:21:35)

quote:

They probably didn't count while playing, singing or dancing though

yes, but because they are professionals not because the music is uncountable. as the video in ricardo's post implies, they likely counted while learning.

quote:

No flamenco palo is "in" any kind of time signature, because it is not written music

are you saying tangos isn't in 4/4? or that siguiriyas isn't in 12/8?

btw bulerias is in 6/8 change my mind



silddx -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 11:29:39)

I think Mark is perhaps exploring the depths of pedantry for no obvious reason.



Stu -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 12:15:07)

woah, that andalusian journey video is awesome! never seen that before. thanks



Ricardo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 14:10:18)

quote:

are you saying tangos isn't in 4/4? or that siguiriyas isn't in 12/8?

btw bulerias is in 6/8 change my mind


Clearly Mark Indigo was saying that it is not definitive. For example I absolutely don’t think of tango as 4/4. First of all it would be in 8 count, but to me those counts like buleria are better felt as 8th note counts. So two bars of 2/4 where the foot is on the first or second quarter note. Same for the cousin Rumba, Tientos etc, and Tanguillo as well. 6/8 is ok for certain tanguillos however, it must be understood straight 2/4 might come into it. You might be familiar with notation of rock tunes that have a 12/8 signature however, the ‘feel” is triplets in 4/4, so at the start of the score the transcriber puts BOTH time signature, but leaves only one ever after in hopes the reader gets the point.

One might argue the 8 count pattern implies 4/4 at half tempo, but this is not correct because then you have two rhythm patterns in each bar, defeating the purpose of bar lines. Might as well measure out even longer phrases. A good example is “half compas” phrases that pass almost unnoticed (in rumba tango Tiento Tanguillo etc) until you count phrases and realize you might need a random 6/4 bar that makes no sense. So the smallest divisible unit is clearly 2/4 with 16th note groove (or triplet 8 groove in certain tanguillos).

Like wise siguiriyas is not 12 either because the pattern has an odd symmetry. Alternating odd meters of 7/8 and 5/8 makes the most sense, and not surprisingly I have seen it noted that way by musicians coming from outside flamenco traditions. The alternating 3/4 and 6/8 actually that is popular (no doubt devised by some classical guitar player or something) is erroneous as any computer play back will prove. You have to express 8th note=8th note EACH AND EVERY BAR SWITCH, in order for it to work, other wise implied tempo changes occurs each bar. Again, 8th notes are adding to 12, and therefore if you don’t want to use the odd meter option, the best would be 6/4 with special beaming application.

Bulerias is not 6/8 because 6/8 has a two beat triplet feeling. AS I explained earlier Buleria, at its root, is a fast Soleá and if you don’t have that thing baby Farruco is counting ingrained (10 count phrasing) then you simply don’t understand Bulerias period. Again, to notate it I would personally use 3/4 in the 110 bpm range, where 16ths are grooving, as that is how the feet are used by palmeros in the juerga, not in 6/8 or triplet feel. However, in the moments that the 10 count phrase manifests, there has to be some compromise going on, either you start that section from scratch as if it IS solea just super fast, with the tempo marking etc, as a single 12/4 bar (10+2), or you mark in the score where the counts align across the two bars of 3/4. Any other argument about notation I will be able to explain why it is erroneous, or compromised somehow, and that is the jist of what Mark Indigo was getting at.



silddx -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 17:50:08)

An amazing explanation, but for a beginner this is all terrifying really. Surely there is a simpler way to explain, and ingrain into the beginner, the 'spirit' of the palo's time signature, for example 1&2&3&a4&a5& for Siguiriyas. Although that's a weird example perhaps.



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:23:52)

quote:

quote:

In case I didn't already make it clear, I make a distinction between "time" and "time signatures". Time signatures are a convention of standard notation. The number on the top is common to lots of music, 2 time, 3 time, 4 time etc., but the number on the bottom refers to what type of written note. If the music is not written, and writing it down is not part of the practise and performance of that music, then the bottom number is irrelevant and the "time signature" is redundant.


Again, you make good points, however if there are twelve beats in a compas, but those beats have no time value, what have you got left?


Answer 1: If it's not written out in western classical music standard notation, then the question is irrelevant. If it's written down (invariably by someone else, not the flamencos themselves), then it has to conform to the standards of western classical music standard notation, but as I have already pointed out not a few times, music has been, and still is, practised for millenia all over the world by people without written music or time signatures.

Answer 2: Listen to the recording, use the "tap in" button on your (digital) metronome, that will give you the bpm.



silddx -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:31:30)

quote:


Answer 1: If it's not written out in western classical music standard notation, then the question is irrelevant. If it's written down (invariably by someone else, not the flamencos themselves), then it has to conform to the standards of western classical music standard notation, but as I have already pointed out not a few times, music has been, and still is, practised for millenia all over the world by people without written music or time signatures.

Answer 2: Listen to the recording, use the "tap in" button on your (digital) metronome, that will give you the bpm.


OK thanks, Mark.



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:31:44)

quote:

quote:

They probably didn't count while playing, singing or dancing though

yes, but because they are professionals not because the music is uncountable. as the video in ricardo's post implies, they likely counted while learning.


I never said they CAN'T count, nor that they NEVER count. In fact what I was questioning was the reliance on music notation. You must have seen one of the PDL documentaries where he describes waking up in the morning as a kid and hearing the cante still going from the night before, no? He said he knew all the rhythms and all the melodies before he was old enough to even pick up a guitar. I think that is probably normal for people who grow up in a flamenco family.



kitarist -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:32:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

No flamenco palo is "in" any kind of time signature, because it is not written music

are you saying tangos isn't in 4/4? or that siguiriyas isn't in 12/8?


Mark just told you what he is saying, and he is correct. Why do you then type up something else and ask him if he is saying that instead?

Time signature is a concept for writing music, and it comes with a host of assumptions(*) beyond saying how many of what kind of note value in a bar of written music. Yes, you can try to express flamenco in writing, using these concepts the best way they can fit, and we have, but no flamenco palo is "in" a time signature per se.

(*) For example at least in Western music, for accents (strong pulses) - how many and where within a bar; or tempo implications even, or vice versa- tempo implying what kind of time signature should be indicated out of several compatible ones like 2/4 vs. 4/8; or historical practice ones that are not readily apparent or deducible - like knowing that 6/8 is not just a 3/4 written differently, but implies two strong pulses, or that a bar line is placed such that a bar starts with a strong pulse/accented beat; etc..



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:34:10)

quote:

are you saying tangos isn't in 4/4? or that siguiriyas isn't in 12/8?


yep. What Ricardo said...

quote:

btw bulerias is in 6/8 change my mind


both 12/8 and 6/8 are compound time, which is a shorthand for writing continuous triplets in 4/4 and 2/4 respectively, without having to write the 3 and a ) over the top of each triplet group.



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:35:55)

quote:

I think Mark is perhaps exploring the depths of pedantry for no obvious reason.


now you're just being personal and insulting in a snide little chat with Chester... [8|]



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:38:27)

quote:


OK thanks, Mark.


You're welcome.



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:40:07)

quote:

Clearly Mark Indigo was saying that it is not definitive. .....and that is the jist of what Mark Indigo was getting at.


At last, the cavalry has arrived, boy am I glad to see you! [:D][:D][:D]



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:56:02)

quote:

So how would you explain Solea to a beginner in terms of timing, rhythm, meter?


Send 'em to Ricardo! [:D][:D]

Actually I think "explain" in the question is part of the problem, and listening and doing it is the solution. I'm not a teacher, and my answer to what you are asking would depend on where the "beginner" was at in terms of whether they had played guitar before and/or any other instrument and what styles or genre if they had. Also how much flamenco they had seen and heard and listened to. That's really significant, because it's easier to teach something someone is already familiar with (but just don't know the mechanics of doing), and the more familiar with it they are the easier (I assume) it would be.... I wouldn't bamboozle them with a whole bunch of music theory or maths lesson, and I probably would start with right hand technique and basic rhythm and build it up from there... note how in Ricardo's Soleá video the right hand is playing a 3 rhythm that repeats 4 times to fill what we know as a compás.



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 20:59:47)

quote:

the palo's time signature, for example 1&2&3&a4&a5& for Siguiriyas


sorry, but 1&2&3&a4&a5& isn't actually a time signature! But it will work fine for counting Siguiriyas....

quote:

to explain, and ingrain into the beginner,

I think these are two different things, and to ingrain compas I would recommend 3 things that have helped me:

1 get the solo compas cd/mp3 for solea, siguiriyas, whatever palo, and listen to the escobilla/rhythm with guitar tracks in the car/train/bus/walk/cycle on your commute, while walking/jogging/working out, in the kitchen cooking, chop onions in compas, just whenever you can, and practise palmas and playing compas on the guitar along with it too of course.

2 go play for a dance class, sit in with a more experienced guitarist, or find a class that doesn't have one and be prepared to get it wrong most of the time![:D]

3 listen to a lot of cante

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solea-Solo-Compas/dp/B000LZ5SLU/ref=sr_1_1?crid=K2NA3GMI722U&keywords=SOLO+COMPAS.+SOLEA&qid=1692907468&s=music&sprefix=solo+compas.+solea%2Cpopular%2C72&sr=1-1

https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-solea.html

https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7802.html

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000LZ66B6/ref=dm_rwp_pur_lnd_albm_fr

https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-siguiriyas-y-martinetes-ii-en.html

https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7788.html



Romerito -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 21:26:05)

quote:


quote:

the palo's time signature, for example 1&2&3&a4&a5& for Siguiriyas


sorry, but 1&2&3&a4&a5& isn't actually a time signature! But it will work fine for counting Siguiriyas....

THere are some notations out there that use 1/4-3/4-3/4-2/4 or 2+2+3+3+2 over 4 or 8. If you want to be historically accurate, it's 6/8-3/4...



chester -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 22:09:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

I think Mark is perhaps exploring the depths of pedantry for no obvious reason.


i agree there's some pedantry regarding what "time signature" means. in my mind the difference between something like 12/8 and 7/8 + 5/8 is mostly academic. a capable musician should be able to figure out how to feel the pulse given either signatures. yes there will be differences in the way the notes are beamed but that's only when reading from a score, not in the listener's ear.

don't get me wrong i enjoy geeking out and "arguing" over musical minutia as much as the next person but to come in to a discussion about which palos are simplest in terms of meter and say that THERE ARE NO TIME SIGNATURES IN FLAMENCO seems a little silly to me and before i made assumptions i wanted to clarify whether mark had a point or if this was another "flamenco was created by magical illiterate gypsies and the rules of music don't apply to it" moment.

time signature/meter is inferred, it's not prescriptive. 6/8 can apply to both two groups of three and three groups of two. hell you can write a bar that has a group of four followed by a group of two and no one will take away your music license.



silddx -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 24 2023 22:19:37)

quote:

Sorry, but 1&2&3&a4&a5& isn't actually a time signature! But it will work fine for counting Siguiriyas....


You are quite right. I should have said count.



Ricardo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 25 2023 17:42:34)

quote:

6/8 can apply to both two groups of three and three groups of two. hell you can write a bar that has a group of four followed by a group of two and no one will take away your music license.


This is just plain false. 6/8 is always expressed as two groups of 3 8th notes. 3 groups of 2 8ths is a DIFFERENT TIME SIGNATURE (3/4). If a deliberate beaming of 4 and 2 8th is required, people that know how to write music necessarily CHANGE the time signature to reflect this (4+2/8 is how it would be expressed on the staff).

If none of the previous is adhered to, then there is an inefficiency going on between the purpose of the score, and those that have to interpret it as intended. And yes, the “music license” should be revoked to boot. There is plenty of music that does not use notation because people are too lazy to learn any rules about, wanting to “pretend” they have some pseudo freedom to create whatever they want (something you yourself have been trying to claim “magical illiterate gypsies” can’t even avoid). I am just saying, if you MUST do it, do it right, there is a logic or method to the madness. Otherwise you don’t need it…and definitely don’t need notation to learn flamenco.



silddx -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 25 2023 17:57:49)

This is really helpful, thanks, Mark.

quote:


quote:

to explain, and ingrain into the beginner,

I think these are two different things, and to ingrain compas I would recommend 3 things that have helped me:

1 get the solo compas cd/mp3 for solea, siguiriyas, whatever palo, and listen to the escobilla/rhythm with guitar tracks in the car/train/bus/walk/cycle on your commute, while walking/jogging/working out, in the kitchen cooking, chop onions in compas, just whenever you can, and practise palmas and playing compas on the guitar along with it too of course.

2 go play for a dance class, sit in with a more experienced guitarist, or find a class that doesn't have one and be prepared to get it wrong most of the time!

3 listen to a lot of cante

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solea-Solo-Compas/dp/B000LZ5SLU/ref=sr_1_1?crid=K2NA3GMI722U&keywords=SOLO+COMPAS.+SOLEA&qid=1692907468&s=music&sprefix=solo+compas.+solea%2Cpopular%2C72&sr=1-1

https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-solea.html

https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7802.html

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000LZ66B6/ref=dm_rwp_pur_lnd_albm_fr

https://www.flamenco-spain.com/didactic-material-en-en/solo-compas-en/solo-compas-siguiriyas-y-martinetes-ii-en.html

https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/solo-compas-7788.html



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 26 2023 18:03:03)

quote:

don't get me wrong i enjoy geeking out and "arguing" over musical minutia as much as the next person but to come in to a discussion about which palos are simplest in terms of meter and say that THERE ARE NO TIME SIGNATURES IN FLAMENCO seems a little silly to me and before i made assumptions i wanted to clarify whether mark had a point or if this was another "flamenco was created by magical illiterate gypsies and the rules of music don't apply to it" moment.


It's not "geeking out", pedantry or silly to point out that flamenco is not written music, and therefore no palo has an inherent time signature, that anyone who transcribes it in standard notation has to make a choice about what time signature to use, and there are a variety of opinions and choices about the "best" option in each case. Ricardo is way ahead of me on this, but I have come across enough problems and anomalies to realise that there is a reason that no one time signature seems to completely fit any compás as practised.

You also don't seem to have understood the point about time signatures that I seem to have to have made over and over again [and now resorting to wikipedia, as maybe you will take it from another source]; "The time signature is a convention in Western music notation to specify how many of a particular note value are contained in each measure (bar). The time signature is a notational device representing the meter, an auditory feature of the music."

Rhythm and time signature are not the same thing, because as I have also already said, "People have been making music for thousands of years without standard notation or time signatures, and still do in many musical cultures: North and South Indian classical music, Persian, Arabic, Turkish/Ottoman classical music (there are other "classical" musics, but it's quite a list, if you don't know it already, and you're interested, check out "The Other Classical Musics: Fifteen Great Traditions" by Michael Church), and folk music all over the world. And flamenco!"

It's not "geeking out", pedantry or silly for a very good and practical reason. If a beginner thinks that they will need to spend time learning to read standard notation in order to learn to play flamenco guitar, then they are gonna waste a lot of time learning to sight read when they could be developing their ear. Whenever I have taken group classes/workshops (in the UK) the teacher demonstrates and the students learn by listening and watching. You need ear for that, and reading skills are irrelevant because no sheet music is supplied. Flamenco has been, and still is, an oral culture, so if you want to take lessons in Spain, and learn from the source, the teacher will throw stuff at you, often without counting, and if you are dependent on scores you will be lost. If you really want to get compás ingrained one of the best ways is to play compás for dance classes, for which no scores will be provided. etc. etc.

As for "flamenco was created by magical illiterate gypsies and the rules of music don't apply to it" I think that's your fantasy, not mine...[8|]



mark indigo -> RE: basic flamenco guitar rhythm patterns-order of complexity (Aug. 26 2023 18:07:47)

quote:

This is really helpful, thanks, Mark.
no problem, you're welcome.



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