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I am beginner. I observed that artafana guy is clever. He knows his job well as a teacher and thats why he created those exercisers for beginners that screw your brain because as a beginner you have troubles to alternate fingers when you change strings while playing his simple exercises. Do you think guys that exercises for beginners develop your skill to alternate fingers subconsciously when you change strings ?
Posts: 1956
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)
I think it's a good idea to get used to it early, before you develop certain habits or indeed a distaste for doing that kind of stuff. When I started learning (by myself) I developed habits that were difficult to unlearn and there are still some that remain because as an already intermediate level player I was unwilling to change it. So I'd say if you learn things the right way from the beginning, no matter how difficult they are is better, than having to adjust things over years. I'd also say that don't just look at one person's exercises but as many as you can, because you will learn something from all of them. There are many-many books out there with transcriptions, as well as videos and dedicated teaching websites. Ultimately if you're hungry for knowledge and have a good work ethic, you can learn guitar without having to rely on one source (or indeed spend much money).
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
lets say my exercise is simple picado exercise and it starts with middle finger. After i learn to play this exercise staring with middle finger should i also learn to play the same exercise starting with index finger so that altogether i can play the same exercise with two different alternating fingers patterns
Posts: 1956
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)
It really is up to you - it is a good idea if you really want to improve yourself. Most picado runs will have an optimal finger to start with depending on string changes. When going from higher strings to lower you'll want to play the higher string with the middle finger and the lower with the index (and vice versa going from low to high) but being able to alternate will make you a better player. However, it shouldn't be a priority at this point as you can easily be an amazing flamenco guitarist without ever playing much picado. I'd suggest you concentrate on the forms (palos), compás, and different techniques other than picado.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rafapak
I am beginner. I observed that artafana guy is clever. He knows his job well as a teacher and thats why he created those exercisers for beginners that screw your brain because as a beginner you have troubles to alternate fingers when you change strings while playing his simple exercises. Do you think guys that exercises for beginners develop your skill to alternate fingers subconsciously when you change strings ?
Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.
Ricardo, can you please recommend videos on youtube that explain what compas are and what rhythm guitar patterns are available in flamenco ? I know they have some sort of 'phrases' (please forgive me my wording but i dont know proper words that describe flamenco rhythms) that last for 12 beats but what happens in every bit I don't know. Please reccomend sources where I can find information about rhythm guitar patterns in flamenco guitar music.
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rafapak
Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.
rubbish. a straight click has no rhythm. and this guy has probably forgotten more than you know.
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.
what ricardo says is important. you waste time if you don't know about rhythm guitar patterns in flamenco and you start learning techniques
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.
rubbish. a straight click has no rhythm. and this guy has probably forgotten more than you know.
I don’t think what devilhand is saying is rubbish, at all. The brain does provide the pattern. It’s kind of fundamental. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouths but isn’t that essentially the point Ricardo is making when he encourages the use of a metronome over Palmas tracks and such?
There’s a video out there of Carol King where where she says a click track can feel like it’s got swing when put in the proper context. Unfortunately, when she demos it they add a drum track with accents over the click which totally obscures her point, lol, but still…
Arrgghh! Yes, lol, Carol Kaye. And she calls it groove, not swing. Which does make a difference, I guess. But, yeah, that’s the video I was thinking of. I probably should have looked it up before posting.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rafapak
quote:
Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.
Ricardo, can you please recommend videos on youtube that explain what compas are and what rhythm guitar patterns are available in flamenco ? I know they have some sort of 'phrases' (please forgive me my wording but i dont know proper words that describe flamenco rhythms) that last for 12 beats but what happens in every bit I don't know. Please reccomend sources where I can find information about rhythm guitar patterns in flamenco guitar music.
Here is Soleá and there are other vids I made in that series that teach basic compas for other song forms like Fandango and Tango.
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to RobF)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.
rubbish. a straight click has no rhythm. and this guy has probably forgotten more than you know.
I don’t think what devilhand is saying is rubbish, at all. The brain does provide the pattern. It’s kind of fundamental. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouths but isn’t that essentially the point Ricardo is making when he encourages the use of a metronome over Palmas tracks and such?
Devilhazard said Guillermo was "not quite right". Guillermo was making a distinction between beat and rhythm. He is right, because they are in fact different things. If you watched his video, he set his metronome to 90 bpm. If you set a metronome to 90 bpm is it in 2 time? or 3 time? or 4 time? or is it contratiempo? None of the above, it's just a click. The next thing he says is, "we need to create cycles... we need to group beats together..." in other words, we create a pattern out of that string of uniform beats. You can use that click to practise or play any rhythm or compas as Ricardo advocates, but whatever rhythm or compas is not there in the click or beat, we bring that to it, so yes, "the brain does provide a pattern", but that was pretty much the next thing Guillermo said, so saying he is "not quite right" is just what I said, "rubbish".
You may take exception to me calling another members' post "rubbish", but from my point of view he/she/they (who knows?) is making a nonsense criticism of a pro who has spent years playing professionally in Spain accompanying singers like Rocio Marquez, going out of his way to explain rhythm at a basic level.
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
You may take exception to me calling another members' post "rubbish", but from my point of view he/she/they (who knows?) is making a nonsense criticism of a pro who has spent years playing professionally in Spain accompanying singers like Rocio Marquez, going out of his way to explain rhythm at a basic level.
I didn’t see what devilhand said as being a criticism, more just an observation that a basic click track is not necessarily boring. We’re interpreting what he said differently.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to
In the past Devilhand has made unusual assertions about rhythm that show him to be novice level. Here he is only stating an opinion about bordem. The argument is only about what is boring or not. In the end, my point that seems to have been missed in this thread is that “rhythm guitar patterns” are not the same as “rhythm” or even “rhythm patterns”, in other words the video posted is not relevant. I was talking about physical techniques needed for playing flamenco guitar (strumming chordal patterns that define each palo need to be learned before picado exercises). That is all.
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