the idea of exercises for beginners

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rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

the idea of exercises for beginners

I am beginner. I observed that artafana guy is clever. He knows his job well as a teacher and thats why he created those exercisers for beginners that screw your brain because as a beginner you have troubles to alternate fingers when you change strings while playing his simple exercises. Do you think guys that exercises for beginners develop your skill to alternate fingers subconsciously when you change strings ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2023 20:40:46

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

I think it's a good idea to get used to it early, before you develop certain habits or indeed a distaste for doing that kind of stuff. When I started learning (by myself) I developed habits that were difficult to unlearn and there are still some that remain because as an already intermediate level player I was unwilling to change it. So I'd say if you learn things the right way from the beginning, no matter how difficult they are is better, than having to adjust things over years. I'd also say that don't just look at one person's exercises but as many as you can, because you will learn something from all of them. There are many-many books out there with transcriptions, as well as videos and dedicated teaching websites. Ultimately if you're hungry for knowledge and have a good work ethic, you can learn guitar without having to rely on one source (or indeed spend much money).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2023 21:31:01

rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

lets say my exercise is simple picado exercise and it starts with middle finger. After i learn to play this exercise staring with middle finger should i also learn to play the same exercise starting with index finger so that altogether i can play the same exercise with two different alternating fingers patterns

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2023 21:56:44

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

It really is up to you - it is a good idea if you really want to improve yourself. Most picado runs will have an optimal finger to start with depending on string changes. When going from higher strings to lower you'll want to play the higher string with the middle finger and the lower with the index (and vice versa going from low to high) but being able to alternate will make you a better player. However, it shouldn't be a priority at this point as you can easily be an amazing flamenco guitarist without ever playing much picado. I'd suggest you concentrate on the forms (palos), compás, and different techniques other than picado.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 0:36:37

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

quote:

I am beginner.

You joined foroflamenco in 2015. What have you been doing since then?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 9:48:10

rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

for some reasons i had to stop playing. Now i can play again.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 13:27:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rafapak

I am beginner. I observed that artafana guy is clever. He knows his job well as a teacher and thats why he created those exercisers for beginners that screw your brain because as a beginner you have troubles to alternate fingers when you change strings while playing his simple exercises. Do you think guys that exercises for beginners develop your skill to alternate fingers subconsciously when you change strings ?

Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 14:49:53

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

Is it me or is picado really out of fashion nowadays?

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 15:51:53

rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.

Ricardo, can you please recommend videos on youtube that explain what compas are and what rhythm guitar patterns are available in flamenco ? I know they have some sort of 'phrases' (please forgive me my wording but i dont know proper words that describe flamenco rhythms) that last for 12 beats but what happens in every bit I don't know. Please reccomend sources where I can find information about rhythm guitar patterns in flamenco guitar music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 16:00:07

rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

i found this guy and looks like he knows what he is talking about

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 16:12:17

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rafapak

Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 18:20:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.

rubbish. a straight click has no rhythm. and this guy has probably forgotten more than you know.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 21:14:37

rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.

what ricardo says is important. you waste time if you don't know about rhythm guitar patterns in flamenco and you start learning techniques

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 22:33:24

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.

rubbish. a straight click has no rhythm. and this guy has probably forgotten more than you know.

I don’t think what devilhand is saying is rubbish, at all. The brain does provide the pattern. It’s kind of fundamental. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouths but isn’t that essentially the point Ricardo is making when he encourages the use of a metronome over Palmas tracks and such?

There’s a video out there of Carol King where where she says a click track can feel like it’s got swing when put in the proper context. Unfortunately, when she demos it they add a drum track with accents over the click which totally obscures her point, lol, but still…

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2023 22:56:45

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to RobF)

quote:

Carol King where where she says a click track can feel like it’s got swing

are you thinking of carol kaye?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IOjcOJfR-7M

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 2:52:28

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to chester)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

Carol King where where she says a click track can feel like it’s got swing

are you thinking of carol kaye?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IOjcOJfR-7M

Arrgghh! Yes, lol, Carol Kaye. And she calls it groove, not swing. Which does make a difference, I guess. But, yeah, that’s the video I was thinking of. I probably should have looked it up before posting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 3:09:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to rafapak)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rafapak

quote:

Beginners should not put much time into picado. Compas is essential, meaning rhythm guitar patterns. Second after that is basic pulgar, third would be arpegios. Last would be the fancy stuff after most of that is well on its way….Alzapúa s, Picados, Tremolos.

Ricardo, can you please recommend videos on youtube that explain what compas are and what rhythm guitar patterns are available in flamenco ? I know they have some sort of 'phrases' (please forgive me my wording but i dont know proper words that describe flamenco rhythms) that last for 12 beats but what happens in every bit I don't know. Please reccomend sources where I can find information about rhythm guitar patterns in flamenco guitar music.

Here is Soleá and there are other vids I made in that series that teach basic compas for other song forms like Fandango and Tango.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 16:39:52

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to RobF)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to divide these beats into groups of 2, 3, or 4... beats. So 4/4 or 3/4 etc. time is already there if we want it or not.

rubbish. a straight click has no rhythm. and this guy has probably forgotten more than you know.

I don’t think what devilhand is saying is rubbish, at all. The brain does provide the pattern. It’s kind of fundamental. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouths but isn’t that essentially the point Ricardo is making when he encourages the use of a metronome over Palmas tracks and such?

Devilhazard said Guillermo was "not quite right". Guillermo was making a distinction between beat and rhythm. He is right, because they are in fact different things. If you watched his video, he set his metronome to 90 bpm. If you set a metronome to 90 bpm is it in 2 time? or 3 time? or 4 time? or is it contratiempo? None of the above, it's just a click. The next thing he says is, "we need to create cycles... we need to group beats together..." in other words, we create a pattern out of that string of uniform beats. You can use that click to practise or play any rhythm or compas as Ricardo advocates, but whatever rhythm or compas is not there in the click or beat, we bring that to it, so yes, "the brain does provide a pattern", but that was pretty much the next thing Guillermo said, so saying he is "not quite right" is just what I said, "rubbish".

You may take exception to me calling another members' post "rubbish", but from my point of view he/she/they (who knows?) is making a nonsense criticism of a pro who has spent years playing professionally in Spain accompanying singers like Rocio Marquez, going out of his way to explain rhythm at a basic level.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 18:18:25

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)

I've only recently discovered guillermos vids. I really like them. He's passionate and informative.

Not following this thread really but if had to choose who is right generally between guillermo and devil hand I know who Id choose! 😄

But...I'm still not convinced devilhand isn't some pro in disguise playing a sophisticated game of silly buggars!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 19:12:45

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

so yes, "the brain does provide a pattern", but that was pretty much the next thing Guillermo said

Where in the video did he say it? I delivered additional information coming from a different field of study.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 19:14:37

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to Stu)

quote:

But...I'm still not convinced devilhand isn't some pro in disguise playing a sophisticated game of silly buggars!

Paco Cepero's sock puppet.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 19:40:34

kitarist

Posts: 1717
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to silddx)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

But...I'm still not convinced devilhand isn't some pro in disguise playing a sophisticated game of silly buggars!

Paco Cepero's sock puppet.

Nah, I think he is a couple of time zones east of Simon. Iran?

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 20:13:22

rafapak

Posts: 271
Joined: Aug. 9 2015

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Here is Soleá and there are other vids I made in that series that teach basic compas for other song forms like Fandango and Tango.

thanks ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 20:53:53

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

You may take exception to me calling another members' post "rubbish", but from my point of view he/she/they (who knows?) is making a nonsense criticism of a pro who has spent years playing professionally in Spain accompanying singers like Rocio Marquez, going out of his way to explain rhythm at a basic level.

I didn’t see what devilhand said as being a criticism, more just an observation that a basic click track is not necessarily boring. We’re interpreting what he said differently.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 20:59:24

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

quote:

so yes, "the brain does provide a pattern", but that was pretty much the next thing Guillermo said

Where in the video did he say it?

"he" didn't say it in the video, "he" said it in his post, because the "he" that said it was Rob, not Guillermo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 21:13:33

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 18 2023 21:15:42

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2023 21:14:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Not quite right at 3:30. It's not boring. Steady beats tell you something because our brain tends to

In the past Devilhand has made unusual assertions about rhythm that show him to be novice level. Here he is only stating an opinion about bordem. The argument is only about what is boring or not. In the end, my point that seems to have been missed in this thread is that “rhythm guitar patterns” are not the same as “rhythm” or even “rhythm patterns”, in other words the video posted is not relevant. I was talking about physical techniques needed for playing flamenco guitar (strumming chordal patterns that define each palo need to be learned before picado exercises). That is all.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2023 16:52:12

Brendan

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to Stu)

quote:

But...I'm still not convinced devilhand isn't some pro in disguise playing a sophisticated game of silly buggars!

I used to think that. Now, I think of him as proof that our community is a village.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2023 18:21:08

kitarist

Posts: 1717
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: the idea of exercises for beginners (in reply to Brendan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

quote:

But...I'm still not convinced devilhand isn't some pro in disguise playing a sophisticated game of silly buggars!

I used to think that. Now, I think of him as proof that our community is a village.