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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Looking for a thread (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=335259&mpage=11#338899 and the thread there.
Revisiting the chart there, it is focused on the singers of “the cradle”, mainly Soleá and Siguiriyas. A couple of singers my research has lead me to are Pedro el Morato (contemporary of Silverio, but from Levante region) Rojo Alpargatero (also levante region), Ramon el Ollero (Triana, a little older than Joaquin), Rafael Moreno (also from Triana, bad recordings for guitar but important singing). Ollero is explicitly named by Oliver de Triana, that “we payos follow the school of Ramon”, and gitanos followed Joaquin. This is interesting because I think Ramon was also Gitano but I am not clear about that or why the payo alfereros would follow him. Also, clearly Mairena did not like the whole thing there. 
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 8 2023 17:25:52
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kitarist
Posts: 1717
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Looking for a thread (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Ollero is explicitly named by Oliver de Triana, that “we payos follow the school of Ramon”, and gitanos followed Joaquin. This is interesting because I think Ramon was also Gitano but I am not clear about that or why the payo alfereros would follow him.
Ramon el Ollero was a payo, so that explains it (or, at least, that makes for an easy/probable explanation of why the preferences went that way). See this original research by the same Manuel Bohorquez we encountered earlier, who hunted down original birth records etc.:
https://manuelbohorquez.com/la-gazapera-flamenca/ramon-el-ollero-un-gachorcito-de-triana-que-sale-del-anonimato/
"Al no ser un cantaor gitano, sino un gachorcito de la Cava Vieja de Triana, Ramón el Ollero ha sido poco menos que un proscrito. Acusado, además, de adulterar y devaluar las verdaderas soleares de Triana. Ramón no fue gitano y, al parecer, tampoco se esforzó nunca en parecerlo a la hora de cantar. Quizás por este motivo, Ricardo Molina lo trató tan injustamente en el Diario de Córdoba, en 1963."
(same article republished on expo flamenco, but with pictures still intact, here: https://www.expoflamenco.com/clasicos-cante-jondo/cantaor-ramon-el-ollero-o-la-voz-alfarera/ )
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Konstantin
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Date Aug. 8 2023 17:52:06
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for a thread (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
The only thing I know is I came across some data base that called him “cantaor gitano”,
Bohorquez went through actual civic records and detailed family history, so I'd rely on him.
I would but as I said, looking at the birth record there he found I would assume him to be Gitano, strongly by the mother side (Vargas is a huge percentage of gitano cantaores). It is only the almost accusatory statements about his cante and the “Payo” thing comes in, and in a derogatory way, that I understand him to be “payo” and the fact that “we payos follow his school”, which as a statement does not admit Ramon is Payo himself. This simple bio here, without being as well researched etc, matter of factly states what I myself would assume without any “payo” statements:
https://elartedevivirelflamenco.com/cantaores946.html
So, perhaps like Paquera, where people rightly assume she is gitana everything is fine until someone comes along to, almost visciously point out she is PAYA, and then I am like what? No way, and then there is Manolo Sanlucar to clarify the situation…she is mixed race. So it could be that simple common thing, and therefore the negative “payo” thing comes along with him opening his door to students of cante. Basically he could identify more with one or the other and we would need his personal statement to definitively say either way, and therefore he remains in a state of “super position.” I personally need more data.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 9 2023 16:39:35
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for a thread (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
I would but as I said, looking at the birth record there he found I would assume him to be Gitano
I thought the quote I enclosed in Spanish from Bohorzuez unequivocally stated (in several ways) that he is not gitano. Am I misunderstanding what it actually says? I thought it says the following:
"Not being a gypsy singer but a little gaché from the Cava Vieja de Triana, Ramón el Ollero has been little more than an outlaw, accused, moreover, of adulterating and devaluing the true soleares of Triana. Ramón was not a gypsy and apparently never made an effort to appear so when singing. Perhaps for this reason, Ricardo Molina treated him so unfairly in the Diario de Córdoba, in 1963."
gachorcito = little gaché = little non-gitano. And also two additional phrases in that paragraph stating he was not a gitano. What am I missing?
You are not missing anything, unless you missed this from the page I linked:
quote:
RAMÓN RODRÍGUEZ VARGAS, cantaor gitano, más conocido en la historia del arte del cante flamenco con el nombre artístico de RAMÓN EL OLLERO, o Ramón de Triana por haber nacido en Triana (Sevilla) en el año de 1854 y murió en el Barrio de la Feria, en Sevilla, en 1905, destacó no solo por cantar muy bien las soleares alfareras, las seguiriyas o las Malagueñas, sino por saber mucho sobre el cante jondo.
So we have conflicting information between two AFICIONADOS. I must admit unless an artist publicly states his own race and creed in this artistic world, then it is never clear. In MANY personal cases of my own working with individuals, I have noticed NON gitanos identifying as gitano, and it is not until very direct probing that they might reveal that they are NOT, and there are good reasons. Even I have experiences true blood gitanos covering it up for their friends by pointing how how gypsy they act or even look, knowing full well the reality is different. This is not even yet introducing mixed races (my close friend revealed to me only a few years ago that his dad was half gypsy sevillano, yet he himself does not really identify as such even though he is a flamenco cantaor!). So after reading the Leblond books and articles I realize the simple thing to do is look at the last names, and if it is one of those, then statistics alone lean in favor of gitano blood lines. Vargas, along with Fernandez and Jimenez is in the top category.
What that whole paragraph reads like to me is that his family resided in the non gypsy barrio….nothing more. It sounds “derogatory”, and further that is a set up for the slights given by Mairena/Molina that come up next. There is an assumption that because of where he ended up living and hanging out with that he is “gachorcito”. Further more the word “outlaw” is not something you call a Payo proper….that is what you refer to the gitano that has been kicked out of the community or ostracized. “Gacho” is enough, and it, vs. “payo” is the less derogatory way to refer to non gypsy people. So these “assumptions” might be true and known to be corroborated by those closer to Ramon, but this information is not clearly stated. So as an assumption, it remains no stronger than mine that he inherited cante flamenco like all the others with VARGAS bloodlines, and for whatever reason the gitanos did not like seeing him get credit for a “school” of singing that inspired payos to think they had a heritage or lineage of cante just as important as others. (To be clear, the payos that followed his cante were those that worked the same job industry, alfareros).
In fact the questions that Bohoroquez is putting forward next (that this might be unfair to a singer we never got to actually hear), could be simply answered by my assumptions above…that he was a half gitano that inherited the tradtion but was considered outcast and therefore his popularity made some gitanos angry. Until I have more corroboration either direction I don’t feel this is settled.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 10 2023 15:46:17
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for a thread (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
I didn't miss it but I don't assign much 'weight' to it without evidence where it comes from(*), so this is where we differ.
I had always assumed he was Payo based on Olivers “we payos follow Ramon”, but later questioned my own assumptions because of the situation (he has no business as a payo to have a school of cante that comes from no gitano lineage….Silverio learned from Gitanos himself, likewise Chacon.), and his family name, etc. Wanting to see if ANYBODY might have called him Gypsy AT ALL EVER, I came across that matter of fact bio. I don’t hold people to dates, I have seen good info that has erroneous dates all the time, it does not negate other highly pertinent information. However I agree that all information has some source. The source of Bohorquez regarding race appears to come from two paths…his neighborhood and statements of detractors. There is no explicit admission his dad was payo even (Cagancho and La Negra were Rodriguez in Sevilla) . Yet he sings flamenco because???? Oliver is not mentioned, even as a corroborative (whose cante is quite orthodox IMO). Something is fishy there to me.
So we don’t argue this point further I have written on facebook to the site owner for clarification. If he says “ooops, I meant cantaor NO GITANO”, or he is mixed race, we can put it to rest. If not, then maybe he will provide the source.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 10 2023 18:24:17
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