|
Ricardo -> RE: Looking for a thread (Aug. 10 2023 15:46:17)
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
I would but as I said, looking at the birth record there he found I would assume him to be Gitano
I thought the quote I enclosed in Spanish from Bohorzuez unequivocally stated (in several ways) that he is not gitano. Am I misunderstanding what it actually says? I thought it says the following:
"Not being a gypsy singer but a little gaché from the Cava Vieja de Triana, Ramón el Ollero has been little more than an outlaw, accused, moreover, of adulterating and devaluing the true soleares of Triana. Ramón was not a gypsy and apparently never made an effort to appear so when singing. Perhaps for this reason, Ricardo Molina treated him so unfairly in the Diario de Córdoba, in 1963."
gachorcito = little gaché = little non-gitano. And also two additional phrases in that paragraph stating he was not a gitano. What am I missing?
You are not missing anything, unless you missed this from the page I linked:
quote:
RAMÓN RODRÍGUEZ VARGAS, cantaor gitano, más conocido en la historia del arte del cante flamenco con el nombre artístico de RAMÓN EL OLLERO, o Ramón de Triana por haber nacido en Triana (Sevilla) en el año de 1854 y murió en el Barrio de la Feria, en Sevilla, en 1905, destacó no solo por cantar muy bien las soleares alfareras, las seguiriyas o las Malagueñas, sino por saber mucho sobre el cante jondo.
So we have conflicting information between two AFICIONADOS. I must admit unless an artist publicly states his own race and creed in this artistic world, then it is never clear. In MANY personal cases of my own working with individuals, I have noticed NON gitanos identifying as gitano, and it is not until very direct probing that they might reveal that they are NOT, and there are good reasons. Even I have experiences true blood gitanos covering it up for their friends by pointing how how gypsy they act or even look, knowing full well the reality is different. This is not even yet introducing mixed races (my close friend revealed to me only a few years ago that his dad was half gypsy sevillano, yet he himself does not really identify as such even though he is a flamenco cantaor!). So after reading the Leblond books and articles I realize the simple thing to do is look at the last names, and if it is one of those, then statistics alone lean in favor of gitano blood lines. Vargas, along with Fernandez and Jimenez is in the top category.
What that whole paragraph reads like to me is that his family resided in the non gypsy barrio….nothing more. It sounds “derogatory”, and further that is a set up for the slights given by Mairena/Molina that come up next. There is an assumption that because of where he ended up living and hanging out with that he is “gachorcito”. Further more the word “outlaw” is not something you call a Payo proper….that is what you refer to the gitano that has been kicked out of the community or ostracized. “Gacho” is enough, and it, vs. “payo” is the less derogatory way to refer to non gypsy people. So these “assumptions” might be true and known to be corroborated by those closer to Ramon, but this information is not clearly stated. So as an assumption, it remains no stronger than mine that he inherited cante flamenco like all the others with VARGAS bloodlines, and for whatever reason the gitanos did not like seeing him get credit for a “school” of singing that inspired payos to think they had a heritage or lineage of cante just as important as others. (To be clear, the payos that followed his cante were those that worked the same job industry, alfareros).
In fact the questions that Bohoroquez is putting forward next (that this might be unfair to a singer we never got to actually hear), could be simply answered by my assumptions above…that he was a half gitano that inherited the tradtion but was considered outcast and therefore his popularity made some gitanos angry. Until I have more corroboration either direction I don’t feel this is settled.
|
|
|
|
