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Video "Analyzing the Movements of Paco de Lucia's Technique""
I ran into this 'outsider' attempt to analyze PDL's technique. It may cause some gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair. I searched for it in various ways and it doesn't appear to have been posted previously.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
Very astute, no disagreements. Except the rocking the guitar neck thing, that is nothing important just a reaction to accents in the phrasing. He doesn’t always do it.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
Looking these slow-mos, looks to me that Paco sometimes uses his a finder apoyando. This is something I never thought about before, mainly because I never use my a finger apoyando because I find it impossible to do so since I started playing - it feels very weird and the sound is somewhat weird as well, I guess because of my nail. So do you guys do it, is it normal to do it?
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Filip)
quote:
Looking these slow-mos, looks to me that Paco sometimes uses his a finder apoyando. This is something I never thought about before, mainly because I never use my a finger apoyando because I find it impossible to do so since I started playing - it feels very weird and the sound is somewhat weird as well, I guess because of my nail. So do you guys do it, is it normal to do it?
You should practice ring finger apoyando during arpegio until it feels normal. It will improve your arrastre. You'll get a smooth transition from pppim to a-a-a-a-a-a.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
Refreshing to hear a classical trained guitarist who data he enjoys finding the ‘fouls’ and things that are not supposed to be done and realizes it’s a technique.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Filip)
quote:
So do you guys do it, is it normal to do it?
It is normal to use it for accenting, like for bringing out a melodic line you do with the 'a' finger while doing arpeggios. One great guitar method where the concept is introduced very early and is extensively used is the Sagreras method (by Julio Sagreras, a contemporary if Miguel Llobet).
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Brendan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Brendan
Carcassi Op. 60 No. 19 is an exercise devoted to precisely this. I know, because I’ve been doing it.
A distinction is, even in the way it is written, in flamenco we don’t do an anticipation or grace note between the bass and treble note together, such that a slight off set occurs, but rather land the two apoyandos together at the same moment.
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
Very nice video with good conclusions. Some things wouldn't have surprised you though if you knew flamenco and other artists a little bit deeper. Like resting your thumb on the bass string while doing picados is nothing to be surprised about, you'll see artists push the E string way down while playing the higher strings - and you will see people do different things when moving downwards towards the basses, some will curl their thumbs and some will not. Similarly the 5 note rasgueado (eamii) used to be very common (not so much these days) but I would say that's a point where I don't agree that it sounds like 6s, rather like augmenting the 4 note amii rasgueado to five. If you wanted sixes there, you'd have to use a completely different type of rasgueado, (Pmp, Pai, iai) it is not doable with ami fingers.
What made Paco a recognised flamenco guitar player was his technique, whatever he did was amongst the best, especially his hand economics. But what made him a guitar god is that he was a similarly gifted composer.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
I'm glad I was so wrong about how this video would be taken. I thought the non-standard descriptions and lack of context would lead to a lot of negative comments, but instead people aren't getting distracted by that at all.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
Thanks a lot for the responses guys!
quote:
Sometimes it almost feels that I’m using a-finger picado, when a picado run starts from the end of an arpeggio.
I get it, though for me when switching from arpeggio to picado on the first string I would hit it with an a-finger tirando.
quote:
A distinction is, even in the way it is written, in flamenco we don’t do an anticipation or grace note between the bass and treble note together, such that a slight off set occurs, but rather land the two apoyandos together at the same moment.
I don't know if I understand correctly what you are saying Ricadro, so please correct me if I'm not...does this mean that the bass and treble should be played together at the same time in flamenco? It confuses me, because this is how I understand what you wrote, and on the other hand I thought that in flamenco we play the bass note slightly before the treble.
I also need to ask one dumb question, which way is ascending and which way is descending?
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
There are 3 ways to play scales:
1) straight fingers (eg Sabicas, Grisha) with power mostly from large knuckle. 2) Bent fingers, with most of the power coming from the large knuckle (probably quite a few players do this). 3) Bent fingers with a lot of the power coming from the middle knuckle. The large knuckle will be used to position the finger, but as it comes in contact with the string the middle knuckle will kick in. This is how Paco plays. This is not something that someone can easily switch to - eg to quickly try it out. It takes years of practice.
All 3 methods can produce very good results. One point I would make is that it is impossible to distinguish methods 2 and 3 from a video. They both look very similar.
The right hand thumb doesn't actually play any role in picado apart from providing some stability. If you are relying on the thumb somehow to play picado - eg if you can't play picado just as well with a free-floating thumb - then you are doing something wrong. The power and fluency of picado comes from the fingers alone. Using the thumb as an anchor when you are in the learning stage has the danger that it could prevent the fingers and the arm (as this has to be free enough to allow the hand to move smoothly) learning how to freely move across the strings (especially from low to high strings).
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to hamia)
I am not very sure about the 3rd assumption, the middle joint movement, and since it cannot be distinguished when looking, the only way would be if Paco was alive and we could actually asked him to clarify this. Another far fetched way would be to ask Maria Bandera, his nephew about this, as he did play quite some time with him and played very similarly and as fast back in the concierto de Aranjuez and trio days.
The thumb feels an important thing when learning picado. In classical apoyando the thumb is most of the times free, but most classical players do not have that lighting speed powerful bursts that almost any flamenco player has. You might have noticed some flamenco players pushing the 6th string down very much when paying the higher strings, for example Antonio Ray comes in mind, where the 6th string sometimes touches the 5th😅, bit it does not hinder them on their picado.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to AndresK)
quote:
I am not very sure about the 3rd assumption, the middle joint movement, and since it cannot be distinguished when looking, the only way
I agree with you, but we don't need to ask anyone to be certain it is not correct, since we know anatomy.
First of all, joints don't have any power in any case; they are like pulleys with ropes, and the ropes are powered by flexor (and extensor) muscles in the forearm (there are two other muscles in the hand which both can aid the flexor superficialis pulling on the largest finger segment, but their main function is different).
To first order, when we want to strike the string, the contracting flexor superficialis muscle puls a rope attached to the end of the first/largest finger segment and the rest of the finger goes along with it. The 'power', always comes from that, as if it is from the big joint - meaning the flexion of the largest finger segment towards the palm, bringing the rest of the finger segments with it with the most distal one going through the string. A second flexor - profundus, pulls a rope attached to the end of the middle finger segment - is aiding this, but cannot function as a sole or dominant force.
To produce the appearance of only the middle joint functioning, something gets added to this - the extensor muscle firing to oppose the flexor superficialis to partially balance the apparent movement of the largest finger segment WHILE flexor profundus is still pulling the middle finger segment. This is possible because of how the two flexor tendons reach to different finger segments (see picture below). Even so, the largest finger segment is still pushing down hard to make a good stroke; we just have less apparent movement from it. It is impossible to just free-standing activate the flexor profundus without the extensor (+ flexor superficialis) - and if we could, trying to push through the string with picado/apoyando will just make our fingertip bounce over it, or if a free stroke, maybe pick the string upwards.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
To first order, when we want to strike the string, the contracting flexor superficialis muscle puls a rope attached to the end of the first/largest finger segment and the rest of the finger goes along with it.
Flexor superficialis attaches to base of middle phalanx, not the end of the proximal phalanx. (Flexor profundis to base of distal phalanx).
Finger movement involves a complex organisation of synergistic muscle activity. For example there is some extensor activity even when fingers are flexing. Then add in complexity of stabilising non-instructed fingers. Then add in complexity that we do not really know how movement is controlled: personally my current bias is for a dynamic systems model where different states may be brought about by central and peripheral factors coupled to external factors. These states influence and initialise a dynamical system whose evolution will produce movement.
Anyway wrong forum, we don't need to know any of this stuff to play picado. Get the metronome out, find a maestro who can both actually play picado well and is a good teacher.
van Beek N, Stegeman DF, van den Noort JC, H E J Veeger D, Maas H. Activity patterns of extrinsic finger flexors and extensors during movements of instructed and non-instructed fingers. J Electromyogr Kinesiol. 2018 Feb;38:187-196. doi: 10.1016/j.jelekin.2017.02.006. Epub 2017 Feb 21. PMID: 28279574.
Latash ML. The bliss (not the problem) of motor abundance (not redundancy). Exp Brain Res. 2012 Mar;217(1):1-5. doi: 10.1007/s00221-012-3000-4. Epub 2012 Jan 14. PMID: 22246105; PMCID: PMC3532046. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22246105
Hipólito I, Baltieri M, Friston K, Ramstead MJD. Embodied skillful performance: where the action is. Synthese. 2021;199(1-2):4457-4481. doi: 10.1007/s11229-020-02986-5. Epub 2021 Jan 28. PMID: 34866668; PMCID: PMC8602225.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
Flexor superficialis attaches to base of middle phalanx, not the end of the proximal phalanx. (Flexor profundis to base of distal phalanx).
Yes but connected in multiple places around the corresponding joints (as seen in the diagram) so I think to first order the effect is as described with superficialis having a great lever to move the first phalanx around the MCP joint, and profundus the second around the PIP joint. There is no such thing a power coming from this or that joint (but it always comes from flexing the first phalanx), and I thought this is important to realize as to avoid frustrating practice, based on a misinterpretation of how the motion is generated, to mimic motion.
Same idea that it is dangerous to infer the source and timing of forcing based on the apparent movement - another example when people talk about economy of motion seen with skilled guitarists (which is a result of their efficient use of force and its timing and lack of extraneous/non-productive muscle engagement), but it gets interpreted backwards - attempting to develop skill by imitating the small motions, restricting motion forcefully.
Thanks for the refs, I will check them out. I have a bunch from when I was looking into this a couple of years ago..
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Yes but connected in multiple places around the corresponding joints...
Yes the anatomy is complex and so are the kinematics and kinetics. At the current stage of scientific literature they are not fully understood. There are no simplistic linear causation pulley and rope analogy answers here, either for understanding motor control or when one starts wading into the murky waters of understanding autopoietic agent/arena relations.
quote:
..., but it gets interpreted backwards - attempting to develop skill by imitating the small motions, restricting motion forcefully.
It is possible to stabilise the MCP in neutral or even extension and flex the PIP/DIP, e.g. as in so called 'hook grip' but whether this should be used in picado is another question. I suggest not because this is an unnecessary MCP stabilization using excess muscle force for both the stabilization and then for the muscles producing the flexion
But in my opinion, none of this detail matters for learning picado- instead listen to a maestro's advice (and let's face it, only Ricardo on this thread can actually play picado at an advanced level) and back to the metronome!
quote:
... I thought this is important to realize as to avoid frustrating practice, based on a misinterpretation of how the motion is generated, to mimic motion.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to hamia)
quote:
3) Bent fingers with a lot of the power coming from the middle knuckle. The large knuckle will be used to position the finger, but as it comes in contact with the string the middle knuckle will kick in. This is how Paco plays. This is not something that someone can easily switch to - eg to quickly try it out. It takes years of practice.
I want to hear your picado. Do you have any video showing your fingers while you're playing picado?
Your last sentence "It takes years of practice." says it all. I would say it will take forever because it's impossible to develop proper picado technique with method 3.
quote:
the only way would be if Paco was alive and we could actually asked him to clarify this.
I bet Paco played picado with complete relaxed fingers with 100% of the power coming from the big knuckle. That is exactly what happens when you relax your hand completely and move your fingers. The middle and tip joint are passive and the finger movements are entirely big knuckle-driven.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
There are no simplistic linear causation pulley and rope analogy answers here, either for understanding motor control or when one starts wading into the murky waters of understanding autopoietic agent/arena relations.
Well, I wasn't aiming to provide a unified theory of finger mechanics. The context I wrote my reply in was as a reaction to Hamia's 'power from the middle joint' type of picado. I used the anatomy diagram and the analogy as sufficient (I thought) to show how it cannot be true that there is this other way of picado-ing that involves flexing from just the middle joint with inactive MCP - something you seem to agree with based on your "... I suggest not [,] because this is an unnecessary MCP stabilization using excess muscle force for both the stabilization and then for the muscles producing the flexion" comment.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
Well, I wasn't aiming to provide a unified theory of finger mechanics
Besides, it's the wrong part of the body: if you want to unify theories, TOEs are where it's at.
I'll see myself out. ^^
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to AndresK)
quote:
I am not very sure about the 3rd assumption, the middle joint movement, and since it cannot be distinguished when looking, the only way would be if Paco was alive and we could actually asked him to clarify this.
This has been discussed quite a bit on here over the years. No general opinions seem to have changed. The guy who made the video, myself, graf Martinez, Hamia, and many others have believed the PIP pull mechanism based on the optics of video. I admit, that the guy in the video seems to have made the realization of truth quite early in his analysis vs myself and Graf Martinez. Hamia is still in denial despite all of us making the same claim, and that is sort of “ok” IMO, because it gets everybody thinking or talking about the subject in more detail. I made a video at some point linked below. You CAN in fact play as Hamia suggests, and subjectively it feels very different, but there is an objective test about it. The question about big joint is between LIFT ONLY, or PUSH AND LIFT. The test is to do simulated picado on a flat surface. The “lift only” becomes more like a “reach” and the nails can slide on the flat surface, so you feel this pulling action. Yes the tip joints have to be loose and floppy to achieve this. You can play the guitar this way reaching over strings with minimal big joint operation (slight lift to clear the string).
But the realization of Graf Martinez, myself, and the guy in the video is that the strings are not only pulled sideways, they are in fact pushed DOWN by the big knuckle, in all flamenco guitar player cases. I think the mental concept Hamia continues to champion is actually ok for getting away from straight stiff finger posture, and learning to use bent PIP posture to align the tip joints for easier string crossing. After the concept is used to get comfortable then everybody doing it should be aware of the pushing of the strings down. The most complex operations are the tip joints.
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
This a great discussion and video by the OP. I have been playing on / off and would consider myself intermediate. Picado is a technique I have not focused on very much but lately I have been spending more time on. Of course PDL is the pinnacle of this and all technique in general. I too have looked at videos of him playing to try and glean some tips that might improve my technique. Here are some things that I have noticed in my progression:
As Hamia stated the thumb is used only for stability. All of the energy needs to be directed into the i, m fingers. I noticed that putting too much weight on the thumb detracts from this. I have always found it difficult to transition the thumb from resting on the top above the low E string and then suddenly move it onto the E string when the picado run reaches the G string. It is something I am still learning.
Another issue I have with the thumb is quickly sliding along the neck. One picado run I am practicing starts on the zero position and then quickly jumps to the 6 position. I feel a lot of friction between my thumb and the neck so I started to try and lift my thumb in the air while making the transition but not finding it easy. I just got some guitar wax and put it on the neck and it has helped.
As far as curved vs straight fingers, I find that I prefer curved fingers. Maybe only because it came from watching PDL videos.
I have watched different tutorials on picado technique and they always stress to play staccato notes by stopping the sound with the alternating finger. This is easy to do when playing one note at a time. But as I try to play faster it falls apart and notes become more legato. I feel this detracts from the sound and it sounds better with staccato notes.
When I am learning a run I find it helpful to think ahead where the next hand position and notes are. After I do this for awhile it becomes memory and I don't have to think about it, it just happens. But it can be hard to think about this and also what all your fingers and thumb is doing at the same time.
My i and m fingers have nails that hook down which makes it impossible to play picado well. The only solution I have found is straighten them by heating with a hair straightening iron and a teaspoon. I have to do this daily. It sucks but I don't have another way to deal with it.
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Cervantes)
quote:
As Hamia stated the thumb is used only for stability. All of the energy needs to be directed into the i, m fingers. I noticed that putting too much weight on the thumb detracts from this. I have always found it difficult to transition the thumb from resting on the top above the low E string and then suddenly move it onto the E string when the picado run reaches the G string. It is something I am still learning.
Well, learn Panaderos, where there are many bass notes on different strings. It is not so simple. This applies to many picado examples where a melody is played opposite bass lines.
quote:
Another issue I have with the thumb is quickly sliding along the neck. One picado run I am practicing starts on the zero position and then quickly jumps to the 6 position.
Could be the finish on the neck. Not sure why French Polish advocates don’t thicken up the neck or consider options. The more “smooth and plastic” it feels back there the better, and it should not affect tone.
quote:
I have watched different tutorials on picado technique and they always stress to play staccato notes by stopping the sound with the alternating finger. This is easy to do when playing one note at a time. But as I try to play faster it falls apart and notes become more legato. I feel this detracts from the sound and it sounds better with staccato notes.
The staccato thing is designed to train fingers to develop quick reset action, and minimize unnecessary movement. The musical concept of putting a rest between notes is not the actual point. As you get faster with rhythmic control, it should be understood that you don’t have to stop each string as quick as when going slow, the point is that you don’t start flailing your fingers wasting motion at higher tempos or subdivisions of the beat. So it is ok that the notes are not so detached.
quote:
My i and m fingers have nails that hook down which makes it impossible to play picado well. The only solution I have found is straighten them by heating with a hair straightening iron and a teaspoon. I have to do this daily. It sucks but I don't have another way to deal with it.
Most people have some version of this issue, and two things easily solve it. Glue, which bends the nail further, and filing “flat” or in a straight line that “slices through the beak” of the curved nail creating a “ramp” of sorts that the string glides off. The reason people do that hot spoon bending thing, is they are afraid of growing out the SIDES of the nail to equal lengths as the center part, and therefore have this perpetual curved beak in the middle. Since the pink part, or nail bed is curved, envision having MORE white exposed nail on the SIDES than in the middle at the apex of the nail bed.
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From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Fawkes)
Ricardo,
Thanks for the feedback. These are just my observations with my limited experience and ability. My guitar does have french polish finish. While it is a very nice guitar it seems the neck has many small gouges in it and could be better. I have tried filing my nails flat, but prefer the rounded shape. Maybe I will try it some more as you said. Not sure what you mean by the glue, how does that bend the nail?
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to kitarist)
An impressive bit of physiological research there. Chapeau.
But not quite sure how it relates to my point about playing with the middle knuckle.
It is very easy to see that the middle knuckle can be involved in a plucking motion. Don't really need to wade through the literature as a simple experiment will show you the way. Try and use your right hand fingers to scratch an itch. It's possible to do this with a movement just from the large knuckle. But also it's possible to do this using only the middle knuckle. Experiment a bit and you will find this rather obvious. And this is the movement that is involved in middle-knuckle picado - along with some large-knuckle input.
The reason I claim PdL used this technique is in part based on a report by an old friend of this forum, a certain Mr RD. He claims on Youtube that he discussed this very point with Paco and Paco told him that the movement comes, to a large extent, from the middle knuckle. RD's picado skills are up for quite a bit of debate but there is no reason to doubt his conversations with Paco. It also chimes with what Graf Martinez said about picado in one of his books. Again, GM's ability to play advanced picado is not the main point here. He is reporting some accepted wisdom. GM added his own spin to this (which I believe he later backtracked) in that he exaggerated the extent to which the right hand should be flattened - but that doesn't negate the central message.
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to hamia)
quote:
RD's picado skills are up for quite a bit of debate but there is no reason to doubt his conversations with Paco.
RD has psychological problems, is a liar and a con artist, and practically cult-like intentions. There is every reason to doubt such conversations. Regardless, yes Graf Martinez admitted this and then later CHANGED HIS OPINION. I was hoping you were championing the idea based on your OWN conclusions and observations but least of all those two examples. Scratching vs tapping on the itch is the thing. Scratching pulls sideways, tapping pushes down. If Graf Martinez can change (after all those publications he can’t retract on the subject he admitted were uninformed), then so can you amigo. RD is a lost cause, and someone I consider dangerous. I wouldn’t say this if I did not know personally people that were taken advantage of blatantly.
This is where I noticed and was impressed Graf Martinez had changed his view (13 years after we had been arguing about the same topic):
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RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to hamia)
Just sitting here drinking coffee I tried Hamla’s experiment. Of course, you can flex the middle joints of your fingers while keeping the knuckles stationary. But when I do it I can feel the extensors keeping the knuckles stationary. This is a waste of muscle effort, and it also wastes brain function, commanding the extensors. When I flex the middle joints normally, the knuckles flex too.
RE: Video "Analyzing the Moveme... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
RD's picado skills are up for quite a bit of debate but there is no reason to doubt his conversations with Paco.
RD has psychological problems, is a liar and a con artist, and practically cult-like intentions. There is every reason to doubt such conversations. Regardless, yes Graf Martinez admitted this and then later CHANGED HIS OPINION. I was hoping you were championing the idea based on your OWN conclusions and observations but least of all those two examples. Scratching vs tapping on the itch is the thing. Scratching pulls sideways, tapping pushes down. If Graf Martinez can change (after all those publications he can’t retract on the subject he admitted were uninformed), then so can you amigo. RD is a lost cause, and someone I consider dangerous. I wouldn’t say this if I did not know personally people that were taken advantage of blatantly.
This is where I noticed and was impressed Graf Martinez had changed his view (13 years after we had been arguing about the same topic):
Ricardo is right RD isn’t a person you want to attract. Pathological liar who is neurodivergent in a way that’s dangerous. That individual has attacked websites of different Foro members for nothing more than disagreeing and telling them they are incorrect on certain subjects. Also a fraudulent advertiser of the goods they have made under their banner.
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