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Hi everyone, after years of reading the foro, its my first time trying it out!
Amazing work everyone! makes flamenco aficionados feel much updated.
I was planning on getting a Conde CD/IRW-MRW and was looking up some Condes second hand but its very hard and the prices are not too high for them, after waiting months online, I didn't even find anything similar to what I was looking for, of course Im more interested in a natural color guitar.
After months of research I decided to buy an Atocha without trying it, but for some reason the universe rebooted my bank transfer. So now im thinking on my options now.
I check the Felipe Conde Crespo son and they look very nice, downside is 8k but I didn't consider the guitar tuners and case, FCC Son uses Alessi or much higher end tuners than the others, with a price around 500+ eur and the case Hiscox case of around 200eur, making the guitar without accessories around 7k.
I also spoke with Mariano but he was a bit too pushy on selling me a 10k guitar, or a basic Pozuelo or EF and was not very happy when I asked for some of the specs of the guitars like if theres a carbon fiber rod in the neck.
So after the experience I touch base with Atocha before the reboot,
Does anyone knows about the differences between this guitars? Honestly Ive never tried one, but Ive heard they all sound the same?
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
Hi there, "Conde Hermanos" doesn’t exist anymore as a company. The 3 shops are completely independent and competing with each other: nowadays each of them make good guitars in the Conde style. Marketing aside, as a matter of facts you will find more or less the same number of professional players favouring one or the other shops among the 3: it’s a matter of taste and generally people make up their ideas depending on the actual guitars they happen to try out. Atocha used to be the cheap option among the Condes but (money aside) in these days it’s at the same level of the other 2 shops. I was for a whole week in Madrid last December and could try some good ones. The shops of Mariano and Felipe in the city centre were in fact not active but for appointment. To be honest at the actual tag price I wouldn’t buy a new Conde. This is just me obviously but I must say I enjoy much more the old ones and find that in the market many luthiers like Jesus de Jimenez, Javier Castano, Jeronimo Perez etc. may offer a good alternative for less.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Echi)
Hi Echi,
Correct, whats I didnt mention Conde Hermanos,
Have you tried the atocha? what ive heard its they some very similar.
I did try to get a used one but again its very hard to find cedar/indian rosewood. Actually the price tag is not that far apart on 2023 from a used and a new.
The other luthiers price have come up to Condes price tag, I own a Javier Castano, and their not that far apart, even the others.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
A few months ago, I picked up my new Conde Crespo (first guitar pictured on his new website in the photo gallery) partly on the recommendations floating around this foro. I remember Ricardo here recalling a gathering at Gerardo Nunez's workshop where Conde Crespo's guitar blew every other guitar in a room full of highend guitars out of the water. Have been over the moon with the guitar since my purchase. Waitlist was almost a year. I ended up going to Madrid to pick it up in person, so we made a short holiday of it. Conde's guitars have the carbon fiber rod in the neck.
They look very very nice... Only downside is the price tag on those, of course I made my homework, as said before the price of another Conde might be cheaper but FCC(Felipe Conde Crespo SON) compensate with a fine high end precision tuners and a very decent case making almost 1k worth of value making the woodwork by itself 6.8. - 7k
Bahen, could you share pictures and the sound with us?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
Why bent on Cedar top? If you did homework then it should be obvious that Crespo’s guitars are competitive price wise. Here is a guitar essentially identical to my own guitar (mine is Indian, only difference) and it is about the same price. Fairly unanimous everybody loves my guitar that plays it or hears is up close and offers to buy it. Check out the rest of Dan’s sight as well, he always gets nice instruments at correct prices.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks Ricardo,
Well I play a bit of classical as well, cedar has that sound that cant be explained,
right, I like A LOT the Felipe Crespo, main reason why I ask is because ive heard that atochas are not that far apart, of course FCC is very expensive.
8,000eur is alot... even if I purchase an atocha and buy high end tuners and a good case would even be close to 8000 eur... Id be saving 3k,
Also I belive there are much better than Condes, only thing is that im quite into them, their almost like the Porsche of the guitars, for the crespo I could go with a Francisco Barba, or maybe even a Manuel Reyes if lucky...
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
quote:
8,000eur is alot... even if I purchase an atocha and buy high end tuners and a good case would even be close to 8000 eur... Id be saving 3k,
Huh? Atocha have no luthier. They are built in Valencia, Ricardo Sanchis house was typical and probably still. A $1500 guitar was marked up double by the label, this was known in the past. The maestros would be getting one at cost, not mark up, so THAT was an affordable option. The Brothers from Felipe V tried to keep their guitars up in price, as “luthiers”, though the rumors were that they also outsourced. Finally after the brothers split 10-15 years ago we could see a little more clear what guitar was what. From the smoke and mirrors, at least I was able to observe the Felipe Jr (crespo) appeared legit. You mention Reyes, which is a collectors item at $20K, so I don’t get where you are coming up with that guitar competing with Conde anything. If you found an 8k Reyes and did not buy it right away, you just lost $12k
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
quote:
The other luthiers price have come up to Condes price tag, I own a Javier Castano, and their not that far apart, even the others
I have other figures really at least in the shops in Madrid. Conde Atocha are more or less at the same price level of the luthiers mentioned here above while the guitars of Felipe Conde Sr. (and Mariano's "del poema") are usually the most expensive; 2000 to 3000 euro more. I second the advice of Ricardo.
Here are some photos posted by Atocha of 'the workshop'. You can see from the video on Javier Castaño's page above, that this is actually his workshop. Not sure who is making Atocha now.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
It’s the usual story really…. Atocha used to be the shop for studio guitars. Since ‘89 basically the guitars were outsourced to the same companies serving the shop in Gravina. Then Juliana died and the Gravina shop closed down. Anyway in the last years Conde Atocha made the good move to have their guitars made by local artisans as Javier. That’s why the quality grew up. Javier Castano (to mention one) could also go ahead with his own career (he never used the same plantilla or bracing of Conde Atocha) as his contract didn’t prevent it nor there was an anti-disclosures clause. His name got know to the public few years ago when Madinter organised a lutherie workshop held by him as the Atocha luthier. Atocha cannot use anymore the brand Conde Hermanos as it belongs to a different member of the Conde family.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
Sounds to me like you should just order a Felipe Conde Crespo in Cedar/ Rosewood. Get what you want and maybe have a little peace of mind that you are getting a good conde without playing it. I’m sure they will be up to 10k euros before too long
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Echi)
quote:
Atocha used to be the shop for studio guitars.
Depending on the model and who was building them there have been occasionally great media lunas from Atocha. There have also been periods when they have had more consistently good media lunas,- early 90s, 2000-2002, 2012-13. E.g. Atocha media lunas have been good enough for Chicuelo, Gerardo Nunez. I haven't played any Atocha of the last fews years but apparently the quality is good these days?
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
I agree, I meant in the sixties and seventies. Atocha was even the address in the label of the studio guitars made in Pozuelo. Later on the shop used to sell the same guitars made for Gravina, basically till the death of Faustino. In the years 2000 I would rather check among the Atocha guitars than Gravina.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
I haven't played any Atocha of the last fews years but apparently the quality is good these days?
They were great when they were Sanchis’s.
I am sure the luthiers around here are so used to seeing almost a dozen closed boxes lying around their workshops just waiting for bridges and orange lacquer. Right guys?
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I am sure the luthiers around here are so used to seeing almost a dozen closed boxes lying around their workshops just waiting for bridges and orange lacquer. Right guys?
Those photos weren't posted at the same time. Sure making 3 or 4 guitars at a go, is not the same as one at a time. Even with just a little research anyone buying a Conde should be able to realise it's not a one at a time luthier process. They're more like the fender telecaster of flamenco guitars.
Except it seems Felipe Conde Crespo may be building in a one luthier, one guitar at a time process? Or maybe that's just marketing, his father is good at that.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
It's not a mystery or a hearsay. It's clearly written in the website of Javier Castano that he had been working for Atocha for some years and many other people confirmed. The picture posted by Orsonw (as other pictures posted throughout the years by Conde Atocha) are just an evidence more. Anyway I see nothing wrong with it. On the contrary it looks to much honest than the way other people are dealing with this stuff.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
They were great when they were Sanchis’s.
I am sure the luthiers around here are so used to seeing almost a dozen closed boxes lying around their workshops just waiting for bridges and orange lacquer. Right guys?
I remember a visit to Sanchis and, wandering around, I found a rack of at least a dozen mastiles with media luna waiting for assembly.
But the guitarras de Sanchis were buenas and I am sure they are still.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
Vicente Sanchis was just one of the outsourced companies by Gravina and Atocha. You can spot even nowadays some of the Conde-Vicente Sanchis from the rosette and the plantilla. Batches of guitars used to be made by other companies as well. As said, in recent years they started to outsource to few individual Madrid based luthiers and the quality grew up.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Echi)
quote:
Vicente Sanchis was just one of the outsourced companies by Gravina and Atocha.
Don’t know about Gravina, but the good ones from Atocha were always clearly RICARDO Sanchis or Hermanos Sanchis Lopez built, not Vicente. Even my friend had a nice one and we found the stamp on the soundboard.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
My info are that both Vicente Sanchis and Ricardo Sanchis Carpio among others used to make guitars for both the historical Conde shops of Gravina and Atocha. This happened from 1990 on as the luthiers hired in Pozuelo were mostly dismissed and replaced by outsourcing the production. In fact in those years it was economically inconvenient for the Spanish companies to keep going with more than 5 employees and also Ramirez (to mention one) discharged their historical "officiales" and had to make individual contracts with independent luthiers. Coming back to Conde, Felipe has a degree in law and business and from the beginning of the eighties was after the management of the company, following the commercial and contracts. When in 89 the Conde 3 shops definitely split (Gravina, Atocha and FelipeV) Felipe V had a clear advantage with the foreign distributors and the luthiers making the actual guitars. Felipe V soon became the Conde shop of reference. The 2 historical shops of Gravina and Atocha basically had to outsource the guitars to the small companies in Valencia and Barcelona that before were making just the studio guitars. Relation among the Conde shop owners was tense. We all know the scenario changed again when the Conde Hermanos shop in a alle Felipe V closed down and the Shop of Gravina run by Juliana Conde was sold. In recent years Conde Atocha made very good guitars for the money.
Interesting, thanks for posting. José Carlos G. Guadaño apparently revealing the Felipe V process. This is what I could figure out with google translate, so I may have it wrong.
In 1991 Mariano trained him to build following the Conde formula. Building a 1st class guitar in about 15 days from roughly pre-made parts. The guitar was then sent out to be varnished/finished. He says the output was 6-8 a month. He doesn't say so, but I guess he's including what Mariano and Felipe Conde built? He says they got another luthier José Luis Álvarez at some point.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
Nice video, thanks for posting. This guy is reporting things which I and other people had being saying in this forum many times. The difference now is the source of a former employee who can speak directly. I am aware of at least 3 makers who have been working full time in the Felipe V shop in those years and even in 2011, when the shop closed, the official employees used to be 3. In different times other independent makers have been hired to make guitars with the parts given to them and a certain plan to follow. A certain (well known) once luthier told me that he used to make from 5 to 8 guitars per year for Felipe V. He cannot claims it as there are contracts preventing him to speak about this things publicly. Anyway, what matters is that Conde Felipe V used to manage to make quality guitars and become leader in that section of the market. Hat off. Basically this guy worked on the shoulder of the company: what would have done without the training he got from Mariano? He used to get the parts and followed the instructions to assemble them but this would have not be possible without the know-how and the investments of the Conde Family and namely Mariano and Felipe's. For what this guy says it's quite clear that in Conde Felipe V Mariano was the luthier, following the technical aspects of the production and Felipe the guy running the commercial aspects of the company. This is quite evident even now if you look at the actual shops.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
In 1991 Mariano trained him to build following the Conde formula. Building a 1st class guitar in about 15 days from roughly pre-made parts. The guitar was then sent out to be varnished/finished. He says the output was 6-8 a month. He doesn't say so, but I guess he's including what Mariano and Felipe Conde built? He says they got another luthier José Luis Álvarez at some point.
Right, this gentleman is claiming credit for ALL the pro’s guitars, A26, A25 etc, from the 90s. He names Alvarez and Echi is claiming another. I don’t get why a contract only keeps one of the three anonymous. Something sounds fishy to me. Shall I Pass this interview vid on to Felipe and see what is the response?
For what it is worth, I am pretty confident about what my fingers tell me regarding my 2014 comparisons between Felipe and Mariano front line examples (basically seems the opposite of the claim that Felipe is business and Mariano a builder). I admit the finishing process may be the important thing going on (perhaps Mariano needs to change his finisher?). There is also the possibility that the guitars I prefer are made by whoever the guy is that builds FOR Felipe…if this thing is still going on with sub contracting TOP line models. Very simply, I would love to try this gentleman’s guitars, and Alvarez while we are at it, since mr. Anonymous we don’t have the option.
RE: Advise on buying a new Conde 2023 (in reply to Chanpanpap)
Eventually is really that important to you who is the actual maker of your guitar? I have a couple of Conde guitars too and I just don’t care: whoever the employee, he worked for and under the direction of Conde Hermanos and I bought a Conde, btw among the best guitars I ever tried. For me this is enough. I have nothing but respect for Felipe Conde and the Conde family as for Ramirez, Contreras, Sanchis etc. It’s just not the artisanal work the way you imagine. It’s a kind of organised guitar making laboratory - company with a leader with many responsibilities, the first being to promote and sell the guitars. The myth of these people behind the desk 24/7 is just marketing.
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