Left hand strength?

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Left hand strength?

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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

Left hand strength?

My biggest problem on the guitar is that my left hand slows down my right hand! Falsetas that involve barres or position changes (when playing a scale for example) seem impossible to play at speed. I think its a strength problem. I tried lifting weights, and training the grabbing muscles, but what actually helped most is just playing guitar.

Are there any excersizes for lefthand strength and stamina?

Btw i found out that my index finger is anatomically causing the g string too buzz on a full barre, and the b string when barring until the A string. Its the middle joint of the finger which is somehow too soft. Does anyone know what im talking about?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 2:50:42

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I've had a lot of trouble with this too and still do to some extent, but I made a recent discovery. I thought my bony index finger was the cause of barre buzzing, but I realized there are two ways to hold a full barre.

In the weaker version the third finger joint (closest to the palm) is relaxed and slightly broken (angle).. this version is relaxed and feels good when you fret many of the strings in the middle with the other fingers, for instance in regular major barre chords.

For chords where you get buzzing push the large knuckle of your hand forward so that the big joint gets straight, this will give you more of a vice-effect. It's a bit more tense, but it works good for chords like the first one in the intermediate challenge or say (453333).

For either one you don't need a lot of muscle strength imo. You should be able to do both fairly decent without holding the thumb on the back of the neck.

Also be sure that the weight of your arm is helping you, and not pressed against your side.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 3:25:55

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Just practice. Playing involves much more than just strength.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 3:37:21

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to mrMagenta)

thx magenta. I have short fingers, so my big joint is always straight when doing barres up to 5th and 6th string. I think youre right, its not a strenght problem. I tried barring without the thumb and it works, exepct for the g string on a full barre for example.

AFAIK there are 3 ways of barring (i am referring to "big" barres)

-straight index, "flat": Im doing this and i think i got used to it subconsciously by watching PDL vids
- index turned towards the "side", barring with the side. This position does not provide flexibility for the other fingers.
- index "overstretched so that it forms a curve. I think this is (more) a classical position. It helps to play the g string clean, but it needs alot of pressure and in long term will slow me down IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 7:58:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I was told to play scales with a index barré.

It has helped, but there´s still a good way to go. (as with a lot of other technical weakpoints

)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 8:49:11

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Hi Deniz. I think we all have this difficulty. I have recently been trying to improve my left hand too.

I have been doing this excercise. Finger the complete bar chord and hammer on the whole thing (RH doesnt play) strongly and rhythmically letting the whole hand bounce eight times (twice per beat starting at around 100bpm). Then hold down fingers two three and four sustaining the chord and bounce the first finger in bar position eight times. Then let fingers two three and four off the strings and hammer the first finger (still in barre position) eight times and go back to the start. when this feels good reduce the repetitions to four then two and then one.

This should build strength and accuracy and an awareness of how the barre effects coordination.

Another good thing to do is get two tricky chords (at least one of which is barred) in a piece you are working and hammer them on strongly at a medium tempo (always going for a relaxed but energetic 'bounce' ) eight times each. Once this is smooth go for four then two and finally one bounce on each chord.

This should build strength accuracy and confidence. Also if you are bouncing then fatigue will be minimised. In addition if the guitar neck is moving too much then you may be holding the chord with the weight of your arm instead of the strength of your hand.

I hope that made some sense to you, I think that I am getting a lot out of warming up this way.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 10:53:01

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

quote:

i found out that my index finger is anatomically causing the g string too buzz on a full barre, and the b string when barring until the A string. Its the middle joint of the finger which is somehow too soft. Does anyone know what im talking about?

yes i do, i used to have that problem, and i have thought a lot about the issue of strength in the hands.

I think that if you can lift a full tea/coffee mug or beer glass to your mouth, or do any other number of routine household tasks, then you easily have enough strength in your hands to press a few strings down onto a fretboard.

The issue is not strength, but the application and direction of that strength...

...in fact, you may even be tensing the index too much in the wrong way, causing one or two strings to buzz under the joints or whatever.

This is gonna sound a bit weird, but it's the best way i can communicate what i worked out to make barres - relax the index finger and try imagining that it is a big soft slimy slug, and you are gonna flatten it over the strings to make a barre - works for me!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 11:47:29

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Here's the mother of all fretting-hand exercises. The suggested fingering is standard use of index, middle and ring fingers on the treble strings. Try to play rest strokes, and move the barre up a fret to repeat in a loop.

I'm in the process of adding this to my site. Anyone know where it's from?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 12:07:05

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

the mother of all fretting-hand exercises

lol, that sure is! i don't know where it's from, but i do know i'll be practising it, thanks for posting.

btw, where are the other exercises on your site from? i really like the alzapua one, which i mess around with and practise from time to time

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 12:33:50

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to mark indigo)

Hi Mark,

quote:

where are the other exercises on your site from?

Just stuff that I thought of, except for this last one, which David Serva showed me a long time ago (I don't think it's his). It's a killer! A real strain for everyone, including your family and neighbors!

The last bit of the alzapúa thing is based on an old granaína falseta.

The exercises are some of the oldest material on my site (10 years old, I think), and the graphics and audio could look and sound a lot better, especially the alzapúa thing. I really should rewrite and rerecord it as a bulerías.

I've been focused on technique lately and am preparing some interesting picado exercises to upload soon.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 12:58:19

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

try focusing on the middle joint and push it down into the fretboard. forget about the other parts of the finger, relax them, they will follow the middle joint. let the middle joint lead the way. imagine you're fretting the g string with the middle joint. i think we're so used to pushing the on the strings with the tips of the finger that this movement feels weird.

or...

try moving your finger down a bit. i just tried a full barre and my middle joint was between the e and b string.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2009 13:56:59

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I play Fernando Sor's Op.29 No.13 (#19 in Segovia's collection) daily and played it twice daily for a year initially. Guaranteed to produce all the strength possible and a very pretty piece rather than playing exercises.

Here is a TAb but can't vouch for its accuracy.
http://www.classtab.org/fs29_13_.txt

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2009 11:24:16

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Thx all for those useful advices!
I have to make a correction, its not the joint itself, its the flesh part between joint 2 and 3 (if we count the root joint as 1), that causes buzzing. I tried tapering that part with sticky tape and it actually works wonders. But of course it comes off due to the movement of index. After years i do have developed strength and flexibility in barrés, but this particular problem remained.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2009 11:46:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I have seen this problem with some students, the middle joint not pressing the barre good. I will admit it has been many years but my skin is a bit tougher there. Could be like the callouses on the tips, over time your body adapts. Just an idea cuz it has been mysterious to me too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2009 19:13:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Also in the Nuñez Encuentro vid is an exercise for the barre chord/stretch in the arpegio section.

E----------0----------1---------3----------5----------3----------1---------0---------
B-------3-----3---------3---------3----------3-----------3---------3---------3-------
G----3-----------3--------3----------3---------3------------3--------3----------3---
D----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-1------------------------------------------1------------------------------------------
E----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

E-3--5--6--8--6--5--3-- continue arps with those chords barre III etc
B-3--3--3--3--3--3--3--
G-3--3--3--3--3--3--3--
D--------------------------
A---------------------------
E-3----------3-------------

Anyway, run through a bunch of chords with that constant arp pattern and you get a good barre workout.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2009 19:49:28

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

quote:

I'm in the process of adding this to my site. Anyone know where it's from?

From your site?

What is the address`?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2009 12:26:18

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to Doitsujin)

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/norman/home.htm shows a list of everything. The exercises are here: http://www.ctv.es/USERS/norman/pmiexc.htm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2009 14:14:09

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

the mother of all fretting-hand exercises

i like this exercise - most barre exercises are just hold a chord, usually E/F shape and just sweep or arpeggiate over the strings, slide up a fret and repeat - this is just musical enough to be interesting and repetitive enough to be easy to learn and remember!

it took me a little while to realise the pattern to repeat. i printed the tab/notation off and scribbled the next 3 bars in tab, and realised that it's actually bars 4-7 that repeat up a fret each time. I then had the idea that i could play another bar at the beginning on E/E7 like bar 4 of the exercise moved down a fret.

Then it would be a case of 4 bars open, 4 bars under barre, and then keep sliding that up a fret each time.

quote:

Try to play rest strokes

a few query's about this: on all the notes? surely not ascending arpegios? just on the descending 5 or 6 scale note sequences in the second half of bars 3 and 4 (and would you include rest stroke on the a finger in this)? or on the descending dominant arpeggios with slurs in bars 1 and 2 as well?

also, by the time i get to about 9th or 10th position my hand is starting to feel nicely tired and i just stop. I don't think the exercise sounds as good descending one fret each time as it does ascending, and one thing i like to do after some fixed chord/barre work is some scale type things which seem to stimulate the blood flow with a lot of movement. i haven't worked out how to do something like that to return to 1st position and start the barre exercise again yet, but i'd like to.

thanks again for posting this Norman, and sorry, i still don't know where it's from!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2009 14:04:39

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to mark indigo)

Thanks Mark for posting on this, and thanks Deniz for not complaining about the shameless thread hijacking!!!

quote:

on all the notes? surely not ascending arpegios?

Not on all the notes, although that's what I'd be aiming for. At beat two in the first two measures (the ascending arppegios), I wouldn't normally use rest strokes for the i-m-a part on the first three trebles. But I might use rest strokes there at the end of some evenings (after warming up) and I would definitely use rest strokes for everything else.

quote:

just on the descending 5 or 6 scale note sequences in the second half of bars 3 and 4 (and would you include rest stroke on the a finger in this)?

Yes, I use ring-finger rest strokes for those notes.

Mark, thanks again for commenting on this. Any other comments would be appreciated, especially about the origin of this exercise or general opinons about the picado exercises.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2009 9:42:29

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Buzzing during a barre – apart from simply not enough pressure - is generally from not solid enough flesh (Oh, that this too too solid flesh would melt) or sometimes from the string going into the crease between segments. There is one thing you can try, though it's success sometimes depends on what else is being played while you maintain the barre. The usual and correct position for the index finger in a barre is flat against the fingerboard. However, if you try, you can slightly rotate your index finger in the direction of the nut. This brings some of the bony part of your index fingeragainst the fingerboard and gives a much firmer grip. As I said, it can't always be done, but if you practice it a lot, I think it will help.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2009 6:52:25

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Scroll down on the Kevin Gallagher's page to the Barre Technique video and PDF. This is good stuff.

http://www.guitar69.com/videos.html

This guy does a real nice Christmas Deck the Halls. Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2009 13:48:07

Filip

Posts: 405
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I know that this thread is originally about barre chord and index finger, which is the problem I still have, but I did not want to make a new thread for the discussion about left hand strength and speed cause it seems it belongs here anyway.

So, while browsing at Amazon today I accidentally run on a couple of tools for the left hand, it's the first time I see them and would like to know what do you think about things like these. The problem with my left hand is that I think I reached the peak of strength (it gets tired quickly if I play a lot of barres or stretch my fingers a lot) and speed that I can get from my playing routine, and for a while I was thinking if there is a way to improve this, either with or without the guitar.

The first thing I saw is this one. My first reaction was what the heck is this, however after thinking a bit it seems to me that it might give some benefits based on my experience with the right hand. Namely, since a long time ago I use a sponge to mute my guitar, and I noticed that using sponge has an impact on my right hand strength, speed, and control, cause after playing with the sponge for a while I feel I play easier, faster and with more control in my right hand. Does this make sense to you? What do you think about using the sponge like this, and about the thing I linked?

The second thing is this one, and then there is this one as well which I think is familiar to everyone. What do you guys think of these, could they be of any help?

Last but not the least, I guess it's not only (or at all) about these tools, so what kind of practice or exercises you think might boost the left hand? When it comes to the right hand for example, I do exercises from Oscar Herrero's Paso a Paso 1-2-3 for a couple of days and it trains my right hand incredibly, much more than the sponge actually (though I often do these exercises with a sponge actually).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2023 20:59:57

Fawkes

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I am no expert, but:

If you're going to get a standard grip trainer, look into Captains of Crush. The quality isn't absolutely necessary, but it is real.

Gross strength training in my experience is a huge help for all sorts of hand skills. Don't forget to work the extensors also.

Grisha has some interesting left hand warmups in one of his videos. It may be that these address some underlying issues for you.

Be careful of pain. I think that a lot of people are fooled by the level of pain that is acceptable in training larger muscles and joints, and end up overtraining the hand, ending up with strained hands because they were allowing for the same pain levels, but the fact is the hand's signals can be subtler and you should be gentler with it.

I once worked on left hand technique for the violin with a violin teacher who was also a hand therapist and the amount that can be accomplished without straining is amazing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2023 21:58:48

devilhand

Posts: 1602
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to Filip)

Stay away from these tools. You'd rather ask yourself this question: How can I play guitar efficiently or with less effort? It's not about physical strength. Power comes from technique. Try to get your hands on Kanengiser's Effortless classical guitar instructional video. You'll understand why these tools are useless. On youtube there are useful left hand strength exercises of Grisha (as Fawkes mentioned above), S. Tennant (Pumping nylon) and Pepe Romero.

Your tendons and muscles are strained enough when you play/practice guitar. Why put more strain on your tendonds and muscles using these tools? Does this make sense to you?

Forgot to mention. David Russel once said accuracy beats power and strength.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2023 22:30:34

Filip

Posts: 405
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

Thanks for the replies guys.

quote:

Be careful of pain. I think that a lot of people are fooled by the level of pain that is acceptable in training larger muscles and joints, and end up overtraining the hand, ending up with strained hands because they were allowing for the same pain levels, but the fact is the hand's signals can be subtler and you should be gentler with it.

Yeah, and that is the tricky part. I had it a few times doing exercises with the right hand, but luckily I am disciplined and can control myself the moment I feel something is wrong.

quote:

Your tendons and muscles are strained enough when you play/practice guitar. Why put more strain on your tendonds and muscles using these tools? Does this make sense to you?

Well yes and no. Yes because one might say that by playing/practicing you already exercise the hand and muscles enough, and especially in the setting that is important (i.e., playing). No because the assumption is that other types of exercises may help the cause as is the case in many other examples I'm sure (also because I'm somewhat lazy or just would like to maximise the gain if possible by using whatever tool while working/walking/reading/etc)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2023 23:34:23

Fawkes

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

People who practice a ton probably do fulfill their muscle training requirements through that alone (the ones that make playing look easy surely do).

But if you don't have that much time to practice you may need supplemental muscle training to make sure that the task (playing) is making demands at the right percentage of your muscle's capacity. If your muscles aren't maxed out when you play you get greater endurance and control. Partly of course that's about an accurate, refined, efficient technique.

But it's also about strength. When I am "in training" in terms of hand strength I find my typing, of all things, to be faster and much more accurate and smooth. It's no accident that modern athletes do more strength training than used to be the case.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2023 23:45:18

devilhand

Posts: 1602
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to Fawkes)

quote:

I once worked on left hand technique for the violin with a violin teacher who was also a hand therapist and the amount that can be accomplished without straining is amazing.

The magic word is: no tension. They also know that musician's important tool - hands and fingers - need to rest when not in use.

quote:

But it's also about strength. When I am "in training" in terms of hand strength I find my typing, of all things, to be faster and much more accurate and smooth.

Of course guitar playing demands a certain amount of strength. In particular, pinky and ring finger need more exercise so that you can get the same amount of strength in all your fingers.
You're developing enough strength while playing. In order to play guitar you don't need to develop extra strength in your fingers by using these tools.

quote:

No because the assumption is that other types of exercises may help the cause as is the case in many other examples I'm sure (also because I'm somewhat lazy or just would like to maximise the gain if possible by using whatever tool while working/walking/reading/etc)

Your tendons and forearm muscles must be resting when you don't play guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2023 0:32:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to Filip)

The first looks like a recipe for carpal tunnel, the second for early arthritis, and the third for people that are testing their ability after being paralyzed and regaining control of feeling. There are no muscles in your hands that need work. The tendons can get overworked and result in tendinitis…which could be an issue for you already. These things will make it worse. Likely you think you need strength and what you are doing is gripping way too hard with the left. The left should be very gently pressing the strings…only the slightest pressure is needed to hold a single note. For barre chords, you should practice playing muted where you don’t hear notes….play EXTREMELY LOUD rasgueado with the right hand, and very gradually apply gentle left hand pressure until you hear actual notes sounding, buzzing at first, getting more clear. At the very moment you hear all the notes STOP SQUEEZING. That is ALL the pressure you should EVER apply to anything with the left hand. All the rest you do should be WAY WAY lighter in terms of squeeze “strength”.

If you feel some burn when running fast scales, it is the SAME DEAL. You press too hard…try playing fast scales very muted with no clear note pressure. What happens is as the right hand applies loud dynamics the left instinctively squeezes down Unnecessarily hard. You need to work on having the left hand loose light and limber, while the right applies “stiffness” if you need volume or power. Again, the right hand does not need to over do it either.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2023 11:52:55

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to Filip)

This might be in the ‘long shot’ or ‘out of the box’ category, but have you experimented with using a guitar with a thicker neck? The salient characteristic being the thickness, rather than width. Guitars necks can vary in thickness by a couple of millimetres, which doesn’t sound like much, but can have a huge impact on how ‘beefy’ the neck feels, mainly because the change in volume (profile area) is based on the square of the radius of the profile.

A lot of players seem to favour a thinner, faster feeling neck when trying out a guitar, but this type of profile can be more tiring to use over a long playing session. I don’t know the mechanics of it but it seems like it requires more clamping effort for barres. A thicker neck can reduce some of the feeling, it just seems to clamp easier (at least in my case, it does).

This suggestion isn’t backed up by any detailed ergonomic analysis, just my own experience, and my playing is nowhere near the level of probably the majority of decent players on here, so a grain of salt might be in order. But I’ve definitely noted the phenomenon across various types of guitars. It’s one of the reasons why old guys prefer vintage neck profiles for their Fenders. It’s easier for them to clamp down on the barre chords. Younger guys in the electric world are often more concerned with playing fast lead lines than chunky rhythms, so they don’t seem to notice it as much and tend to favour smaller profiles because they perceive them to be ‘faster’.

Summary: it might be worth trying out some guitars with beefier feeling necks, especially if you have had the tendency to quickly reject a guitar with this type of neck profile in the past. It’s possible you’ve never given one enough play time to notice the benefits.

Again, a little out there, perhaps, but possibly worth a try…

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2023 16:25:56

Auda

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019

RE: Left hand strength? (in reply to XXX)

I would suggest practicing with the left thumb off the neck of the guitar. That way it is very difficult to excessively press down on the fret board. Do it also when playing barre, you just need to use the bicep for pressure. Hope that helps.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2023 16:49:31

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