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Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD
Tio Sabas Technique
Hey everyone
I'm sure most are familiar with Tio Sabas by Pdl. Is this Tarranta or Granadina?? Also there is a part with a rasgueado (see pic below) it looks like a four stroke but it's strange with upstroke and two downstrokes and upstroke again. How do you play that? If anyone plays this would appreciate any pointers.
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Thanks man. So how about that part in measure 6 and 7, I can't believe how fast paco plays those arpegios. Oh and what about the tremolo, how do you make it flow when 3 notes of the qudruplet melody are played on 1 string and the last note is on another????
Those Paco arpeggios aren't arpeggios at all. The first time you hear them they hit you in the stomach!! They ascend like an arpeggio but descend in picado at an incredible velocity. Its ironic that Pacos arpeggio is really picado and Gerados picado is really arpeggio. I guess they both just developed thier strongest techniques. Anyway I am pretty sure this is the fingering. I could never get it but then I'm not paco or ever likely to be. However I am not 100 per cent sure that the fingering is correct either. This is my version. If anyone thinks its is wrong, can they be kind enough to tell us the correct fingering for this (arpeggio) technique
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That looks right to me. But I just don't see how this is picado. The C note on the third string (descending part) is the end of a regular arpeggio, and then the B note on the fourth string is the beginning of another short arpeggio "mip".
At least that's how it seams reasonable and that's how I worked on it. Although if the fingering provided is not what Paco uses I can see how this could be a picado...but that kind of picado is "insulting" to normal people like myself who CAN'T DO IT
Shroomy, I know it's a tough piece but come on, you have to challenge yourself. ANd it's a tarranta so you don't have to stick to the tempo Paco used.
I can only do the falseta including the falseta, even that's been a while ago. I've seen a lot of people do this arpeggio/picado technique though. It was taught at Sanlucar's course in Cordoba, I think? If I got it right, Paco didn't create it but Canizares. Very good exercise, but I never got it down clean enough full speed.
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The C note on the third string (descending part) is the end of a regular arpeggio, and then the B note on the fourth string is the beginning of another short arpeggio "mip".
I know exactly what you mean. I thought it must be done that way too and logically it makes sense to plant your fingers in place and then do a mini arpeggio at the end to get the last 3 notes
BUT.......
Thats not what Paco does. If you do that technique you dont get than spine chilling sound that Paco gets. His picado is so fast, it sounds like arpeggio. I remember watching him do it up close and nearly fell off the chair. That technique put me off learning any of that piece including the beautiful tremelo section!
Wow, Pimientito, that's depressing. I was clinging to the hope that it actually wasn't picado and it was doable. Well, now I have to quit the job and just practice those three chords using picado....damn .
By the way, I was hoping to find a video on youtube of him playing it. I don't think it's availbale. Did you see it live or on some DVD?
Lionel, I think I mentioned before, that I look at Paco's stuff (and Amigo's pieces) as coherent compositions and I select them based on their musical qualities...I don't necessarily see them simply as "flamenco" falsetas. Since classical music is what I always played, I pick some of these pieces just like I would a classical piece. This may be a wrong approach. Don't get me wrong I want to get all flamenco technique under my belt, but I also want to work toward completing a stand alone interesting musical piece. Sabicas and especially Juan Martin often seem like collection of falsetas to me, exercises. There is nothing wrong with those but it's one thing to play them and practice and another thing to learn them, memorize them.
I think there is no need to memorize an exercise because you can read it (if you read a sheet, or if you have a tab). On the other hand Tio Sabas or Barrio gives you a benchmark, a goal. It will take a while to get there but it's much more interesting to work on them than on JM's alegrias. And then when you encounter something like this picado in Tio Sabas, you get swamped and do some related exercises and practice until you get it right.
I do however agree with you that it is important to understand what techniques are involved in these pieces...so you're not getting lost in fingerings and positions. That's why we need to get together and analyze Barrio.
As far as Tio Sabas, these picados are tough, but what about that tremolo?
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Those Paco arpeggios aren't arpeggios at all. The first time you hear them they hit you in the stomach!! They ascend like an arpeggio but descend in picado at an incredible velocity. Its ironic that Pacos arpeggio is really picado and Gerados picado is really arpeggio. I guess they both just developed thier strongest techniques. Anyway I am pretty sure this is the fingering. I could never get it but then I'm not paco or ever likely to be. However I am not 100 per cent sure that the fingering is correct either. This is my version. If anyone thinks its is wrong, can they be kind enough to tell us the correct fingering for this (arpeggio) technique
Is it at 1:00 in this video? That mimi part is played tirando or apoyando? It looks like he's playing picado only on treble strings. So the tab above is not correct?
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I love it how he messes up at 1:33 in the second video (at least I hear that way) but then fixes it right away...The world will not see anyone like him...
I was taught that fingering but tirando all the way (except for p). The key was to play the left hand as you would a scale, removing the finger as soon as the note is played, instead of letting it ring. No idea whether that's correct though. My teacher had decent results doing it that way, but I never really practised it.
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I was taught that fingering but tirando all the way (except for p). The key was to play the left hand as you would a scale, removing the finger as soon as the note is played, instead of letting it ring. No idea whether that's correct though. My teacher had decent results doing it that way, but I never really practised it.
The concept of “sweep picking” on electric guitar is similar for the left hand so the pick can glide across the strings. In that sense a well coordinated arrastre (drag the ring finger across all 6) should work fine for this.
I was taught that fingering but tirando all the way (except for p).
I looked at his right hand again. It must be tirando because of the way it sounds. Looks like the last note is a thumb free stroke as well. I'm gonna practice it and see what happens.
Makes sense. I'd have to work on it. For whatever reason it feels a lot more difficult to coordinate with arrastre than with using different fingers.
BTW, not really related, but it reminded me of people playing chromatic runs with a single finger of the left hand. For instance Jerome Mouffe around 1:50 here:
Is there a name for that? Left-hand works the same as glissando but since each note is played separately... Pretty crazy level of coordination. Well for me anyway.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
I'm not sure I understand this discussion, but I think you all may be talking about the technique were you start an arpeggio ascending with free strokes and then complete it by dragging the "a" fingernail back (descending). Tarantas.
Those Paco arpeggios aren't arpeggios at all. The first time you hear them they hit you in the stomach!! They ascend like an arpeggio but descend in picado at an incredible velocity. Its ironic that Pacos arpeggio is really picado and Gerados picado is really arpeggio. I guess they both just developed thier strongest techniques. Anyway I am pretty sure this is the fingering. I could never get it but then I'm not paco or ever likely to be. However I am not 100 per cent sure that the fingering is correct either. This is my version. If anyone thinks its is wrong, can they be kind enough to tell us the correct fingering for this (arpeggio) technique
There is a way to optimize the left-hand fingering to make it easier to do fast. If you use finger 2 (instead of 3) on string 5, you can keep LH fingers 2 (on string 5) and 3 (on string 2) anchored in place and only have to move fingers 1 and 4 but with time to do so as each is two strings apart. Finger 1 frets string 6 then while playing strings 5 and 4 it moves to string 4 wheer it is needed next. Similarly, LH finger 4 plays string 4 and 1 with time to move to string 1 while playing strings 3 and 2. And vice versa during the arrastre from 1 to 6.
For the first arpeggio /sweep from 7th position that is not pictured, the LH fingering sequence is 1, 3, 4, 1, 2, 4 and back and the anchoring in place can be done this time with LH finger 3 on string 5 and finger 2 on string 2. The rest is the same.
EDIT: if you are worried about ringing sounds from the anchored fingers, just keep them anchored but reduce the pressure a bit to mute their strings after the stroke.
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Here's Ramzi practising the way I was taught how to do it:
If this is indeed the idea behind it, then anchoring a finger would defeat the purpose, since the whole concept is to mute the string by lifting the left hand finger as soon as the note is played.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
If this is indeed the idea behind it, then anchoring a finger would defeat the purpose, since the whole concept is to mute the string by lifting the left hand finger as soon as the note is played.
I edited above - you just reduce pressure to mute after stroke as needed, but still keep the two fingers "anchored" in place - meaning they do not fly around the fretboard as the other technique requires - so I think it is easier to learn to do faster. It was just an idea I had yesterday as I was trying this out.
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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