Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Finger nail sticking during picado
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
 RE: Finger nail sticking during picado (in reply to trivium91)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
my index finger has a hook and I’ve been filing horizontal to the finger which seems to help but it’s not enough. Is there anything else I can do? I also tend to file more rounded, following the contour of the fingertip, should I not be doing this?
This has a bit more detail and person-to-person variability to think about as fingertips are 3D; hopefully the picture below makes it clearer what we are referencing. For example, I am not sure from your description which plane you talk about when you mention 'horizontal' above. Whereas 'more rounded following contour of fingertip' seems to be about the xy-plane (see below).
Explanation of the axis in the picture:
Local right-handed coordinate system (local as in relative to the finger itself)
x axis: along the width of the finger towards the thumb;
y axis: along the length of the finger toward the base of the finger (away from fingertip);
z axis: perpendicular to the nail coming out and away on the nail side (from bottom to top of finger, ie. spanning its "height")
1. Nail shape in the xz-plane (not under your control typically)
Blue solid line is how my pima fingertip nails (*) are shaped (a is a bit more curved but the others are really almost completely 'flat' in the xz-plane as shown). So I have to play at a bit of an angle to the string (exaggerated in the diagram) - string here is shown as blue dotted line - in order to avoid getting the string stuck or click on the underside of my nail as it passes from flesh to nail. I also aim at the left side (nearer the thumb) for contact, so all this necessitates a hand angle which is not strictly 90 degrees to strings.
In contrast, and I think what most people have as a fingertip profile on the nail side, is a curved nail (in the xz-plane) - shown here in solid red. That nail shape coupled with a seamless transition from flesh to nail on both sides of the nail makes for a fingertip which can play the string at any angle, including with hand at 90 degrees (string shown as red dashed line) - because the string is a straight line so there never is a case when the string is parallel to the nail shape to produce a click or get stuck.
2. Nail shape in the xy-plane (you control this)
When Ricardo talks about filing horizontal/straight and not rounded, it is about the nail shape in the xy-plane. Unlike the individual variations in the xz-plane, typically everyone's fingertip is rounded in the xy-plane, so choosing a rounded nail shape means following that contour. However, the current thinking is that it is better for tone production to instead have a more-or-less straight xy-plane nail shape with some slight ramp so that whichever edge of the fingertip comes into contact with the string first is where the ramp starts, with a seamless transition from flesh to nail, and then the nail ramps up a bit by the time the string, sliding across the straight 'ramp', makes last contact on that ramped up end of the nail.
(*) I am talking in this section only about the solid blue and red curves/lines which are just the intersection (projection) of the nail edge with(in) the xz plane, regardless of whether that nail edge is straight/ramped or curved in the xy-plane.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 16 2022 19:00:33
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Finger nail sticking during picado (in reply to kitarist)
|
|
|
Regarding your diagram above, the XZ red curve of the nail. Naturally it is a bit flat, and some people have a horrible almost exaggerated flat arc, or twisted or other wise distorted. If you imagine the red line string traveling that shape upward, the time it takes is minimal before release. However, if you put glue on your nails it more severally bends the sides, making the arc much taller along the Z axis. This is ideal, as then you have a very long travel time, ie, you are using the nail for the string to glide across. The y axis give us the tilt towards us of the top of the arc. The longer the nail is it is like setting the string lower on the arc, the shorter is like using only half the arc. Planting the finger is like pushing the flesh down so the string gets a better starting position closer to the bottom of the arc. Too much of a fleshy start and the string hops into the upper part of the arc and gets a thinner tone.
So assuming we are good with the arc, the round or flat filing is along the y axis….meaning if the white material follows the contour of the nail bed, the pink part where the nail attaches to the finger, that means on the sides along the y axis, the bottoms of the two sides of the arc in other words, the white material is short or even disappears into the nail bed (ie the bottoms bend backward along the y axis). That is round nails. What needs to happen is the white material there needs to be allowed to grow out such that along the y Axis, the white material hanging off the finger is LONGER on the sides than in the center. That means, the bottom sides of the arc are closer to us along the y….even they can have right angles or 90 degrees along the ZY view (in reality it will be greater than 90, more like 100) if you turn the whole xyz sideways so X disappears at the vertex. I tried to show this angle in an earlier video where the string plant can never go below zero along the Z axis. You play up along the Z axis so planting requires the string to sit just above zero. If you have super long nails this can be a problem. You need the nail to be short enough so that the planting situation of pushing the flesh down along Z and along y to the right, bring the string down to a good spot deep enough down the Z but not so far down it falls below zero. Round nails curve off the inside corner of the ZY and give the false idea that there is no resistance…instead they experience the resistance of traveling around that curve vs just straight up the smooth glide of the Z.
So in order to SEE the angle at which you file, you need to take the entire arc structure ZX facing you, and bend your finger along the X axis such that y starts moving upward and Z starts moving Toward you. At certain point the Red arc flattens and becomes the blue straight line. If you keep bending until Z disappears at the vertex, then you should see the top view of the nail and nail bed such that, as described earlier, the white parts are shorter along the y Axis IN THE MIDDLE than on the sides. That all depends on the way your nailbed grows, more curves will be shorter, less curved you might even see a contour of almost equal white parts above the nail bed. So back to the straight blue line…that is how the filing should be done. How much you tilted the y line up and Z toward you before it disappears will determine the length. Any ramping will be seen along the y axis relative to the X as well. In my case, because when I bend fingers ie play guitar, the y only goes straight upward on the m finger. Ring finger bends such that y moves upward like this direction \ and my index bends such that y axis moves this way /. The ramps therefore along the X axis will have those exact angle directions, but in terms of degrees or position along y, very shallow. M finger dead straight across X.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 17 2022 17:25:11
|
|
kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
|
RE: Finger nail sticking during picado (in reply to mt1007)
|
|
|
quote:
i wrap 150 grit sandpaper onto the high e string and do picado, tremolo, etc... on the string to file down my nails. this leaves them rough but it helps get in the ballpark of the shape your nails should be.
This is great for determining in practice what the general shape of the nails should be, for obvious reasons, but it also works well for another reason which is not frequently mentioned but is important. That is, this method inherently incorporates the "give" of the flesh at the fingertip when the string is pressed against it. The nail shape and length for smooth playing and full tone should be relative to that, not relative to the undisturbed/unpressed flesh edge and shape. (however, if there is essentially no 'give', this distinction is of no consequence)
How much 'give' the flesh at the fingertip edge right next to the nail has upon being pressed-in varies with people. The more it is, the more important to get the nails right with the pressed-in flesh rather than with the fingertip undisturbed. Otherwise you may still get the nails stuck when playing.
Maybe this is also another reason why the straight nail shape in the xy-plane is seen as more conducive to a better tone production: when the string presses against the fingertip (flesh included), the flesh momentarily gets a straight-line profile (where in contact with the string). Straight nail shape in the xy-plane agrees perfectly with that in the transition to nail, whereas a rounded nail shape is a different transition.
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 17 2022 18:58:28
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Finger nail sticking during picado (in reply to kitarist)
|
|
|
quote:
Straight nail shape in the xy-plane agrees perfectly with that in the transition to nail, whereas a rounded nail shape is a different transition.
I tried to clarify earlier, the straight edge is not seen as xy only….meaning if Z has disappeared at the vertex. It only exists at a tilted orientation where Z is pointing toward you and y is pointing up and away from you, twisting around X axis. When planting there should never be a transition from flesh to nail. The flesh is pushed along the y axis so that the string makes contact with the nail at two points at the bottom of the ZX arc. AS the string travels at two points around the arc and meet somewhere at the top, the flesh moves with the string until the string clears it. So there is never a transition. With round nails the string has to travel a curve at two points on the bottom of the arc, along the y axis transitioning to the Z axis, and this curve is felt as a resistance or up hill battle.
If a player does not plant properly, hitting the string on the flesh and not touching the arc of the nail, then, as I said earlier, the string will jump off the flesh and only hit 50% or less of the arc resulting in a bad tone, perhaps a delay of timing as well. Conversely it would be conceivable with super long nails, to plant on only the nail at the two arc points on the bottom and still have a nice tone. This of course is not practical as planting with flesh pushed down gives stability, and if the filing is done right, keeps the string at the optimal place on the arc.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 18 2022 12:51:10
|
|
kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
|
RE: Finger nail sticking during picado (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
Let's call the nail 'arched' if it has a curve in the xz-plane (your nail shape); 'flat' otherwise, like mine), and 'rounded' and 'straight' referring to the shape in xy-plane as before.
For an arched straight nail what you say should ideally happen is shown in the diagram below - if the solid red curve is the nail shape projection in the xz-plane and the dashed red line is the string, you are saying the fingertip-string interaction should start at position 1, then move towards positions 2 and finally 3.
A couple of general points anyway:
1. With a flat nail, I can't do that as there is no arch, so I have to slightly rotate the finger around the y-axis, then start the stroke at one end and ideally travel the length toward the other end.
2. In both cases there is still a 'nail only' phase at the end with no flesh touching the string. Otherwise one gets a more mellow sound like a low pass filter.
3. If one starts a stroke with nail only on an active string (i.e. string still vibrating from being played before as when doing successive strokes on a single string), the result would be a buzzing sound initially as the vibrating string touches the nail and vibrates briefly against it before being eventually damped and dragged for the new stroke. Conversely, the flesh (or flesh+nail but I am not convinced it is simultaneous) starting touch dampens the string so the initial audible buzzing doesn't happen.
4. Interestingly, from high-speed camera studies of harp players (using same type of strings) and guitar players, the stroke generally has four phases happening within a combined ~40 milliseconds time-span:
----a) The string is in touch with the fingertip and travels with it and is being displaced as the fingertip moves; i,e, it is at rest relative to the fingertip. This is the static friction phase;
----b) Then at some point the force of displacement overcomes the static friction and the string starts rolling around itself (i.e. around the x-axis), thus moving relative to the fingertip. This is the rolling friction phase;
----c) Next at some point the force of the string trying to unwind itself back becomes larger than the opposing forces and the string starts a rapid slipping along the fingertip/nail;
----d) Finally it leaves the fingertip and starts to vibrate given the final displacement along the negative y (pushed into the guitar top) and negative z (pushed/pulled toward lower-pitched strings) axis;
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Attachment (1)
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 18 2022 18:37:39
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
