Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
I hate to say it but im less of a fan of Paco and more of a fan of Vicente, his music seems more emotional.
Perfect. So you actually prefer the first ever flamenco guitarist to use click tracks (and he still uses them). Hope that tells you something right there.
Look, lots of opinions which is great. Rather than come of like a jerk and try to give examples of why some opinion is flawed, let me just relate a thing that happened last night. I was on a gig with a percussionist/cantaor. It is a long gig for the two of us, so it is mostly rumbas, but we do some flamenco proper as we see fit. While several of the tunes it is just he and myself, on some of the uptempo rumbas and such I have a drum machine that has simple kick and some bass lines etc. Nothing fancy it is very sparse. But it is a machine. I tend to use it such that a certain tune will always be at whatever comfortable tempo…although in certain cases I might push it 2 clicks up if the energy level is up there. In general this singing cajon player is one of the best I have ever met in my entire life. Number one thing is tempo…when a certain tempo is required he is there and holds it for dear life. It is honestly, for guys like me that really care about tempo, an absolute joy. It is like someone carrying you around when you were a baby, so comfortable and you feel like you can do things you normally couldn’t do. Whenever compas issues arise on the job I shut up and listen to this guy, all the years I have known him, and have learned so much from him.
But we are playing lots of gigs lately thanks to the pandemic situation, so we both have up and down days. So last night we were doing an up tempo rumba with drum machine going. I had already been aware that in some other tunes with no machine there was some slight lag. Trust me, the opposite is way worse, when people are excited and rushing. Anyway, I am sure that our concluding tempo on those tunes were several clicks lower than as we started, I can feel that thing. It is a matter of me not minding it was happening. For certain musicians they actually DO MIND, so don’t kid yourself that just because a whole band ends at a different tempo that everybody is just happy about it.
Anyway, back to the fast tune with machine. As I said before, this micro timing thing affects the groove. There is NO GROOVE if a tempo is moving around (sorry that some folks think the opposite, but imagine a flamenco dancer lifting tempo…is that a groove?). So the tempo is the machine, and the groove is like slightly behind the beat, and makes the song feel lazy. Since the night was going that direction I let it happen that way, for 90% of the tune. Then after the guitar solo and we come in with the last chorus, I JUMP on that thing with the rhythm guitar way on top of the beat, and the entire song suddenly seems faster and more lively, straight to the end. Fills or rasgueados etc etc, right to the end. Again… the machine was doing its thing at a solid 118bpm the entire tune.
So what was the discussion afterward? Well first, lots of laughter…because maybe I made it so obvious the groove was dragging. He admitted the song felt like so fast he could barely keep up, and I ensured him it was the same tempo we had done thousands of times before. He admitted that he knew that but wow he was tired or whatever….not feeling the tempo. So these are the top level pro problems, but we can be honest and have fun with it. There are guys that have this “problem” consistently and as musicians that are not honest with each other about these things, many don’t talk about it and just avoid working with each other. To be truly humble about it just be honest and address it. Yes take “judgmental” or critical advice and learn from it. When you take the machine OUT of the equation, there will always be the human being in the room or the band that is MORE sensitive to the tempo and groove and they are having to deal with others not feeling it. If they say anything about it, the others should listen and work on it on their own in hope next time they are better. Farruco said he was so glad Paco told him to work with the metronome (a frankly ridiculous thing if you understand the tradition at all), and it changed his life. Also Paco noticed the improvement the guy made right away. We are talking about TOP LEVEL artists here, not students. But it never fails that students come into the game with their excuses “so and so band changed tempo…so and so has more feeling….the click takes away from todays music…etc etc etc. All I can say is be honest to yourselves.
The struggle is real, poor john williams can only handle a couple of bars in tempo at 3:20:
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
There can be precision in tempo without uniformity. In my experience, few have carried it as far to the extreme as Carmen Amaya did--simply because no one else was capable of her extreme speeds.
Here's an example:
In the present day, as in the past, variations of tempo are customary in dance performances of alegrias. But to carry out the precise accelerandos that Carmen does, you first have to master a steady tempo.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
Just out of curiosity, if you are struggling to mesh two falsetas seamlessly together, can you just wait out a beat to arrange your fingers like in the video below? There seems to be alot of pauses in the example below which is why i ask. I didn't count any beats in the song, but i imagine the beats with nothing playing are still part of the 12 beat compas, he just only played on 11 of 12 for example. Is this more or less correct?
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
It is honestly, for guys like me that really care about tempo, an absolute joy. It is like someone carrying you around when you were a baby, so comfortable and you feel like you can do things you normally couldn’t do
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
UT of the equation, there will always be the human being in the room or the band that is MORE sensitive to the tempo and groove and they are having to deal with others not feeling it. If they say anything about it, the others should listen and work on it on their own in
Very well put, well i was able to make some progress the last two practice sessions. I can feel the beat when im playing, i certainly know when im playing off beat....that's for sure. Im struggling with a few sections though. I find it best to use quarter beat mode, though i will use eighth and 16th note mode briefly to get an idea of the speed of an arpeggio for example, than i switch back to single beat, and find tune. I've been using 3/4 timing mode in addition to an accent/different sound on the 1st beat of the 3 so i can hear when to hit the next note in the sequence. Otherwise ill just play in click/click mode. Im struggling with the timing of the legato passages currently, since you dont pluck each note but hammer on. At 70 BMP its really hard to play a legato that slow, perhaps im better off just plucking the strings. Arpeggios are timing pretty good so far though so thats a plus, i cant seem to go faster than 70 BPM on a four note per beat arpeggio which keeps the rest of the song slow.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
Im struggling with the timing of the legato passages currently, since you dont pluck each note but hammer on.
In terms of feeling, there are upper and lower thresholds for certain techniques. For example “half speed” no matter what the technique should not feel the same as normal speed. In fact, I would go as far to say certain techniques are actually “different” at different speeds. This might be more noticeable with things like rasgueado than say picado or arpeggio. But in general what I teach is a ball park zone of tempos to learn specific phrases. The video I posted earlier learning a buleria falseta was a sort of lower-middle tempo. I think that is good in general. If I played that falseta at the tempo of Solea, half speed or less even, even though it is just pulgar, the mechanisms or technical things at work would all feel very different. Unfortunately playing that slow doesn’t really teach you how to play well fast…it just teaches you how it feels slow. So find the lower limit threshold of a technique in terms of how it is supposed to feel and don’t go slower. Legato (or Ligado) same thing.
So there is a trick for getting better timing that goes hand in hand with metronome and specifically fixes legatos. Put a foam or cloth under the strings close to the bridge. The idea is it dampens the sound, or mutes it, but you can still hear the pitches…they just don’t ring, they are all staccato. When you do ligados they sound very rhythmic. Suddenly you perceive the unevenness that you didn’t’ realize was there. Fixing it is pretty easy after that.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
That Wooten video is really awesome. I have myself been practicing with a very slow metronome setting. For example, I would set the click at 20 bpm and play bulerias to it, each click lining up with the 12th count. Once I get used to the tempo, setting the click to 10 (every 2 compases) seems no harder. That being said, I am not as accurate with a 5 bpm click.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
I would set the click at 20 bpm and play bulerias to it, each click lining up with the 12th count. Once I get used to the tempo, setting the click to 10 (every 2 compases) seems no harder. That being said, I am not as accurate with a 5 bpm click.
Bpm of 20 or 10 is over the top. Bpm=40 is the lowest one in metronome, which equals the resting heart rate of high performance athletes. Those who can deal with metronome click at bpm=40 are a top performer.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
quote:
I would set the click at 20 bpm and play bulerias to it, each click lining up with the 12th count. Once I get used to the tempo, setting the click to 10 (every 2 compases) seems no harder. That being said, I am not as accurate with a 5 bpm click.
quote:
Bpm of 20 or 10 is over the top. Bpm=40 is the lowest one in metronome, which equals the resting heart rate of high performance athletes. Those who can deal with metronome click at bpm=40 are a top performer.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
Just out of curiosity, if you are struggling to mesh two falsetas seamlessly together, can you just wait out a beat to arrange your fingers like in the video below? There seems to be alot of pauses in the example below which is why i ask. I didn't count any beats in the song, but i imagine the beats with nothing playing are still part of the 12 beat compas, he just only played on 11 of 12 for example. Is this more or less correct?
Well the pauses in the example are there to provide closure musically, transition, or to allow the music to breath. But definitely allows for changing a technique or hand position. In Bulerías like above, the compas is really felt in 6 beat cycles. you sometimes leave the last two beats silent, or you could let it go for a full 6 count cycle if you are using a compas loop. I guess the important thing is to know where the accents are so that you come back in at the right point so that it makes sense.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
I recall reading Ricardos trick of deadening the strings to focus on tempo variations but hadn’t tried it until last night. Thinking the boss appreciated the reduced volume as well. Can’t say I was surprised how far off I could be but it was fairly easy to even the notes up, and also to just pay more attention.
Wanted to suggest to the OP that both Ricardo and Grisha offer on line lessons via Zoom and Skype etc, for a small fee of course. They both add a lot of value to the foro for free so thought they deserved a plug.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
micro timing thing affects the groove
Ricardo had alluded to it here. But I think it's worth repeating. IMO there is a universe of musical/emotional expression in terms of where one places the note relative to the beat. Once beyond learning the basics, music is more subtle than a binary in time vs. out of time. Some (few) people have a naturally good 'feel' 'groove'. But it can be developed. This is a skill that can be developed against the solid timing of a metronome. Like most people, my inclination is to play ahead. A metronome is a good way to make me aware and train this out of me. I can develop the ability/awareness to pull or push the groove or a single note as musical expression.
As an accompaniment instrument I think flamenco guitar can often have a function similar to the bass in popular western music. It's not surprising we keep referring to bass payers in this thread. Here is another video with a bassist talking about playing with/around the beat.
PS Here's Rosario Tremendita accompanying with bass at 11.33 in this weeks Caminos del Flamenco episode. (Personally I'd prefer flamenco guitar accompaniment).
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Bpm=40 is the lowest one in metronome, which equals the resting heart rate of high performance athletes
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a physical limit to how slow mechanical metronomes can go. With digital metronomes and apps though I guess it depends on how they set it up. Even when they only go down to 40 bpm, sometimes you'll have options to mute certain beats so in effect you can make it go slower. For instance on here:
40 bpm is the lower limit but if you want, say, 20 bpm you can just set it to 2/1 and mute every other beat. Looks like the slowest you could go on this one is 2.5 bpm, which you'd get by setting it at 40 bpm, 16/1 and muting 15 of the beats.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to chester)
Pericón says "El cante flamenco es el único que no se aprende al el planeta Tierra y el que no sabe hacer compás puede cantar bien pero no saber cantar porque le falta lo principal que es el compás."
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to ernandez R)
Yup so i didn't have to use the trick after all, after practice i was able to clean up the entire piece. I was able to 'sense' the timing with the legatos. That said its not a very challenging piece so i can see myself using this technique in the future. I actually find legato's alot easier to play within time when they are faster. At any rate, my biggest challenge now is sextuplet arpeggios...my middle finger is inconsistent and misses the third note in the sequence half the time, its played so fast i had to playback a slowed down recording of myself to realize it. Once i get this technique down in a week or two, ill integrate the metronome.
So far im loving all these little bite sized challenges, just sucks to play the same sequence over and over again, slowly perfecting it. I realize though its not the sequence that im perfecting, its the skill im learning which will be able to be applied to other fasletas. I realize im slowly building new neural pathways to play flamenco as things gets more advanced.
RE: How important is timing and metr... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
40 bpm is the lower limit but if you want, say, 20 bpm you can just set it to 2/1 and mute every other beat. Looks like the slowest you could go on this one is 2.5 bpm, which you'd get by setting it at 40 bpm, 16/1 and muting 15 of the beats.
Nowadays all these digital metronomes can do more. My Boss TU-80 starts at bpm=30. Btw, this online metronome looks fantastic. I just tried it out. 1.875 bpm is even possible, which is 32 seconds per beat. The same setting but choose the main tempo bpm=30 when you open Time Signature.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread