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I suspect the back and sides are Cypress, the top is either Spanish Cedar or a very wide grain spruce. The neck is Spanish Cedar with ebony wood around the guitar. As you can tell from the first picture, the guitar braces itself with cleats instead of a strip of wood, which leads me to suspect this guitar is old with maybe a guard added on later. Uses pegs instead of tuners.
The seller I bought this from claimed it was from the 1910s. I paid $800 for it. I’m wondering what you all think of it!
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
Guy, Looks cool, how does she sound? In the end that's what counts.
Neck and headstock are one piece and apear to be spruce or pine (???) as I've not seen cedar with that grain, often used on lower end instruments. I built two 666mm flamenco with spruce for the neck with no apperant issues... yet.
The lighting is wrong so the photos could be better if the light from the window was behind you. Would be nice to see more photos.
No label or marks inside? Pencil lines? Sr Torres name scribbled in the back somewhere... ;)
Would like to have somthing like that in my collection just cause.
HR
quote:
ORIGINAL: That_Guy
I know almost nothing about building guitars so forgive any ignorance I show.
I suspect the back and sides are Cypress, the top is either Spanish Cedar or a very wide grain spruce. The neck is Spanish Cedar with ebony wood around the guitar. As you can tell from the first picture, the guitar braces itself with cleats instead of a strip of wood, which leads me to suspect this guitar is old with maybe a guard added on later. Uses pegs instead of tuners.
The seller I bought this from claimed it was from the 1910s. I paid $800 for it. I’m wondering what you all think of it!
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
Well, tried playing classical for the first time in 6 years and I am HORRID at it.
So I just switched to play something I’m better at. The first sample is recorded with a SDC pretty close to the sound hole. The second is recorded with an SM57 near the sound hole, too. I think I prefer the 57.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
quote:
ORIGINAL: That_Guy
Well, tried playing classical for the first time in 6 years and I am HORRID at it.
So I just switched to play something I’m better at. The first sample is recorded with a SDC pretty close to the sound hole. The second is recorded with an SM57 near the sound hole, too. I think I prefer the 57.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
Try to get some better photos.
There’s no such thing as inferior top wood, wide grain tops can make incredible guitars, but we’ve been sold a ‘grain line per inch’ lie by knuckleheads who don’t know anything. Top wood is top wood and sometimes the tightest straight grain tops are horrible because they are too dense to be sensitive to high frequency.
The guitar looks really dry, but to my ear it has a great sound. Today guitarists who play romantic era classical stuff seek out these inexpensive cypress guitars and value them because they are more true to the era than the supercharged contemporary guitars made today. There is reevaluation of these trade guitars now, it’s not based on collectible value or how fancy the guitar is, but it’s structural integrity and sound.
This guitar seems worth some restoration work. I’d like to see some good photos if you can manage it.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
There’s no such thing as inferior top wood, wide grain tops can make incredible guitars, but we’ve been sold a ‘grain line per inch’ lie by knuckleheads who don’t know anything. Top wood is top wood and sometimes the tightest straight grain tops are horrible because they are too dense to be sensitive to high frequency.
The top of the 1973 Romanillos #407 is spruce with a wide grain. Furthermore the grain width varies by at least a factor of two across the width of the top. Guitar making wood and tools were hard to come by in England in 1973. Romanillos was using re-sawn 'cello tops.
I have seen Bream's famous 1973 #501 up close. It was made soon after #407. #407 was the 7th of the 4th design series, #501 was the first of the next design. The top of #501 could be the next board in the tree to #407.
When I visited Abel Garcia Lopez in Paracho to order an instrument, I told him how much I like #407. He showed me some spruce Romanillos had given him "from early in his career." Garcia served twice as Romanillos' assistant during his summer guitar making course.
The wood Garcia showed me was a very close match to the tops of #407 and #501.
Garcia took me to his climate controlled wood storage room to pick out the back and sides. I asked him to choose the spruce top, since he is the maestro. When the guitar arrived after a wait of nearly two years, the top proved to be very fine grained, with a lot of "silk" medullary rays.
When I called Garcia to tell him how happy I was with the instrument, I remarked on his choice of top. He said the Romanillos wood was outstanding top material, but I might have trouble selling a guitar with wood that looked like that.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
Sorry guys! Thought this thread was dead. Thank you for the compliments on the sound. I removed the link to the sample, but if anyone else wants to hear it, I’ll record a new one.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
That guitar is old, at least 80 years old. If not more - it’s probably a small factory guitar from the 1920’s or 30’s but possibly older.
The neck is Fir, that’s ok. The bridge is chunky, but not bad.
I love old character guitars like this. It looks to be structurally complete enough to warrant a little investment to conserve it. If I had it I would clean it up, remove the white plastic, examine and polish the frets, cut a new saddle ( maybe) - if there is a different color under the white plastic I’d replace it with a thin wood tap plate of veneer, then put clear Mylar over the veneer.
It’s a lovely thing for what it is and a lot of classical players are picking these up if they sound good. They play the double top or whatever modern guitars they have, but there’s always a cyclical return to Torres and small cypress guitars that are early 20th century because they represent a really key moment in guitar music development.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to estebanana)
For sure! I originally wasn’t going to buy it, but the guy who sold it on eBay posted a video of him playing it and I fell in love with it.
When the postman came with it he said “it feels like there’s nothing in this box.” I was worried he had just sent me a picture of the guitar haha. It’s VERY light. I recorded a video of the inside and I counted 7 braces (idk what the proper term for that is).
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
I posted another recording of a little tune I came up with. It’s distorting pretty bad on phone speakers at high volume. But it’s fine at low volume, headphones, or computer speakers.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
You scored, it sound similar to Carles Trepat’s guitar in some ways. It’s definitely worth maintaining. He has an original Torres, thus guitar is not a Torres, but it’s coming very much out of that school.
If you are in the US I can recommend a few people for a basic restoration.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to estebanana)
I may take you up on that offer when I get a better job! I talked to Richard Brune and he told me the top is spruce. He also said cheaper model small factory guitars like this have loads of intonation problems. If they do, I lucked out and got a great one. I can hear a difference in pitch between 0.79% of a half step. I know this because I have an app called InTune that can measure this. I can’t hear any intonation issues below the 9th fret, and above it is so minor that I don’t think it’s an issue. I’m talking less than 2.5% of what the note is and should be.
I imagine guitars like these, even if they are cheaper models, will go up in value as more of them are lost or broken down, yeah? I’m still young (just 26).
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
quote:
I may take you up on that offer when I get a better job! I talked to Richard Brune and he told me the top is spruce. He also said cheaper model small factory guitars like this have loads of intonation problems. If they do, I lucked out and got a great one. I can hear a difference in pitch between 0.79% of a half step. I know this because I have an app called InTune that can measure this. I can’t hear any intonation issues below the 9th fret, and above it is so minor that I don’t think it’s an issue. I’m talking less than 2.5% of what the note is and should be.
I imagine guitars like these, even if they are cheaper models, will go up in value as more of them are lost or broken down, yeah? I’m still young (just 26).
Collect what you love and if it's value increases an added pleasure. Learn to collect with less expensive guitars first. Collecting is a very interesting pastime, but a game for older collectors if you want to be a player in the market. Learn your horsetrading skills with less expensive goods if that's a calling.
People collect for different reasons and intentions, but go with what you like and love and ask other collectors to help educate you, ask them to share knowledge. Do a little favor for them if they do. I once took a bunch of huge photo files of text and reduced it in size so the photo document could be emailed in one go instead of a series of ten huge files... I did it for a collector because he shared information with me. It wasn't a big deal, took an hour of two of organizing and photo reduction work, but it created a part of his archive that will someday be more accessible to his decedents. Or send them a small gift to let them know you appreciated the knowledge they dropped on you and they'll do it again.
Collections are interesting for different reasons. Some collections are filled with rare blue chip guitars and are expensive to maintain. Other collections may be interesting because they focus on one thing, but have several examples of that particular style of guitar to compare to each other. Think about why you want to collect and whether you want to focus on a narrow interest or be eclectic. But consult with older collectors and formulate a plan when you are young about what you want to focus on. Be a focused collector, make friends with the big shots and you'll have a lots of fun.
These factory guitars can have funky intonation. I put a new fingerboard on a guitar from the 1920's that one of my old customers owns. He's a very good player the guitar is a clearly a Torres model. He's still playing it regularly because the work I did on it 12 years ago is keeping it a vital alive guitar.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
I probably won’t be a collector for this. This one guitar is enough for me, and I’ll take great care of it.
As far as intonation I was told this:
“Measure from the nut to the precise middle of the 19th fret and divide this measurement exactly in half. The 7th fret should fall exactly at this halfway point with an acceptable plus or minus position of no more than 1 mm. Any more deviation from this would be an indication of faulty math in calculating the fret placements.“
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
quote:
Does this sound right?
12 not 19. They recommend this because a lot of luthiers, not all, Compensate at the bridge a millimeter or 3. A simple trick is to do harmonics at 12 and see how close to the same pitch is the fretted note. It is normally the string itself that is an issue not the guitar. Also the issue is often the players technique (meaning vibrato changes the pitch so there is no mathematical perfect way to play a single fretted pitch perfectly. Harmonics are the safest check).
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
So I just did what Ricardo recommended. The note is a little sharp. Probably 4-5% of a half step sharp. That might be noticeable even for the average person, but only barely.
Funny, I don’t really hear anything out of tune to that extent when I play. Even when I play something like the Adagio in Em, going from the 15th fret down to the open string.
Posts: 6447
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
As Ricardo says, the standard test is a harmonic at the 12th on ALL strings compared to fretting each string at the 12th. You may get some variance, especially on the lower basses but this is probably not fatal.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
Just did all the strings. The top 3 were the only ones that were sharp with the high E (the one I was talking about in my last comment) being the one that deviates the most from the harmonic. The bottom three all sound completely fine to me.
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to Escribano)
I've used a small drop of white glue just befor stringing up so as to get pressure on the nut to seat the glue before it dries. Just a tap pops it out if need be. Thinking weak HHG would be more sonicly appropriate because it dries much harder, think brittle, but I don't use it.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What Do You Think Of This Old Gu... (in reply to That_Guy)
quote:
ORIGINAL: That_Guy
As an aside, is it normal for the nut to not be glued on? It falls off if there are no strings on it. Only held up by string tension, really.
Nuts should never be glued. They wear out just like the saddle and should get changed or shimmed as needed. When changing all 6 strings scotch tape it in place until you get a couple strings on.
I miss spoke earlier about measuring from 12 vs 19. I miss read where you were told to check that 7 is exactly half the distance...that info is correct. I was thinking at first about the measuring issue of the scale length vs the string length (which are not the same if there is compensation at the bridge).
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