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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana)
Willy De Ville was Hispano-American. But was recognized by the ....Flamenco's...or the Dutch. The Nederlands was the only country who recognised his worth.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo)
I've been learning a lot by reading this thread. I haven't the knowledge to say anything about the ethymology of the word Flamenco, so this discussion was just an amazing experience.
There are two discussions intertwined, and they are connected for sure, but also separate. As Morante said, really amazing how the particular setting of a Forum allows a discussion to developp (Facebook's settings does not foster such developpments). For me, the forum setting is way more aligned to human thought than any other cyber plateform. So I'm gratefull for this place to allow that kind of developpment.
As for the white man blues thing, and then the cultural appropriation and so on, I think the answer is quite clear. When the music is good....some people shout "Olai". When it happens in a classical concert, your neighbour makes a "huuuuuu" kind of noise", looses his gripp and then he puts his cravatte straight. In a jazz concert, people close their eyes and tap their feets, with a big smile on their face. Olai....!!! When the high-life is good, people dance all night. When kids beat woods and stones in your garden, with sheer energy and something happens, you go like, "Wooaw"
If some people can't get the beauty of a a music, because their minds are bugged by cultural garbage, that's their problem. Be it white, black, orange. It's nothing new. It has happened since...(Sorry , no references).
That word, "Olai" or "olé", is what gets my interest. I think it's a gut uttering that happens, when music is not music anymore, but more of a spiritual experience of connectedness, play and joy....in the midst of sorrow.
So where does the word Olé come from. Allah? Allahu? No idea. Just a question. Plus in the end it doesn't really matter, cause it would be uttered a different way somwehere else. But still.
One thing is sure, Tino can play the blues, and better than many blacks. That was a koan...
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Morante was joking anyway.
I don't know what his intention was. The initial question in this thread sucks. Of course everyone can play the blues and flamenco. My constructive criticism about dutch guy's playing on page 1 has nothing to do with the title of this thread.
quote:
So where does the word Olé come from. Allah? Allahu? No idea. Just a question.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Fluknu)
quote:
So where does the word Olé come from. Allah? Allahu? No idea. Just a question.
It comes from French. The very first matador was named Café. And when they'd introduce him into the ring, the crowd would shout in reply: "au lait!"
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
It comes from French. The very first matador was named Café. And when they'd introduce him into the ring, the crowd would shout in reply: "au lait!"
And thus was the beginning of what came to be known as "Call and Response." Next question please.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
’s just about recognizing how we make whiteness the center of a conversation
Then why keep doing it? Morante was joking anywa
These kinds of comparisons ceased to be funny to me and some of the responses didn’t tickle my funny bone either. The “me thinks ye doth protest too much” style criticism doesn’t register with me too much either. This is a subject I’m interested in, and it seems lots of people are interested in it also.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Fluknu)
quote:
for the white man blues thing, and then the cultural appropriation and so on, I think the answer is quite clear. When the music is good....some people shout "Olai". When it happens in a classical concert, your neighbour makes a "huuuuuu" kind of noise", looses his gripp and then he puts his cravatte straight. In a jazz concert, people close their eyes
What I’m interested in is to get people off of using jargon like cultural appropriation or other buzz phrases, and vice versa, not using buzz words to be defensive. I think using descriptive language to work around the jargony speak is important no matter how you feel about the subject. Sometimes words that are within a discipline to express specific ideas are important.
All stripes of media today exploit academic and socially coined jargon to be defensive and the jargon transforms into negativity sound bites that make objects out of people and ideas.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo)
🎶clouds in my coffee🎶 🎶clouds in my coffee🎶 🎶...
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Morante)
A few years ago a Sevillan impresario friend who organizes flamenco events around the world, and gets to see/hear a lot of concerts told me he once visited a Cante festival in Japan. He was deeply impressed by the Seguiriyas rendition by a Japanese singer. "It was perfect, really jondo", he commented. Impressed, he wanted to talk to the singer, convinced he had Spanish roots. As it turned out, the guy couldn't speak or understand a word of Spanish! "Still, it was incredibly good", commented my friend.
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand)
A quick internet research shows that there are quite a number of possible etymologies for the word "olé". Allah as origin isn't sure at all. I quite like Piwins derivation. And BTW the picador was named Cruasán.
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Sorry you're brain-washed by eurocentric ideology. Take an example of Islamic world. Keep in mind it's also valid for other non-european worlds. Don't believe everything you read in english. "... eurocentrism extends to trivialize and marginalize the philosophies, scientific contributions, cultures, and other additional facets of the Islamic world"
Edguerin is correct. Ole' may have been derived from "Allah," but it has not been conclusively demonstrated as a fact. There are other possibilities. On the other hand, the Spanish term "Ojala'," meaning "hopefully," is derived directly from the Arabic term "Insha'allah," meaning "God willing." Just offered as an example of etymological possibility vs. fact. You shouldn't confuse the two.
If I were you, devilhand, I would be a little careful about categorizing those with whom you disagree as being "brainwashed by Eurocentric ideology." Contrary to your categorical pronouncements, more supple minds recognize that some issues, including some dealing with linguistics and etymology, have yet to be conclusively settled.
Bill
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I edited something that is not true. But my main message remains.
Great argument, if you don't agree with me you must be brainwashed. As someone who has lived in a very Arabic corner of Spain (Granada) I am well aware of the roots of many Andalu' words and place names and of its history.
Academics are clearly not in agreement on either flamenco or olé origins, so why should we be?
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo)
Eurocentric is one of those buzz words that’s convenient to employ instead of using descriptive language. Words like Eurocentric are used as short cuts too often instead of saying something in a personal way that could convey more.
Hey anytime you guys want me to drink the hemlock and stop being creepy and peachy, just let me know!
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Sorry you're brain-washed by eurocentric ideology. Take an example of Islamic world. Keep in mind it's also valid for other non-european worlds. Don't believe everything you read in english.
I don’t think anyone here is particularly ideological, the folks who read here have ideas and feelings about things discussed, but ideological is a bit far, we change our minds enough. It’s true that a lot of things that are taken at face value are white centered but calling brainwashing is not a way to get people to consider other ways of being.
You have to insult people in a NICE way if you want to get them to look at a problem.
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand)
@devilhand: I take offense at being considered brainwashed! And just for your info: I spent many years in Kuwait, Saudi-Arabia and The Lebanon... Maybe you should consider expanding your horizon? @BarkellWH, @ Escribano: Olé.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
AU LAIT TU!
俺?
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to edguerin)
I for one have learned to relax a bit with Devil hands sweeping uninformed statements as he is a novice, and while asking great questions often, he is at the early stage of drinking every single brand of Kool aid on the market, which is fine. Once he gets a flamenco guitar his journey will finally begin and I am sure he will revise his thought process along the way.
Meanwhile, having had lots of contact with Arabic communities over the years, I can’t type the English word “Said” without saying in my mind “Sigh EEED” everytime. Or when in Spain and I order my favorite “Pollo ALLAH- jillo”.
And the bullfight requires au LAIT!, where as flamenco is ÁU lait.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
So why ask, when he already has his own answers?
I think depending on what is asked everyone has their own answer first. The reason why people ask is to know whether their own answer is correct or not. Another possibility is maybe the asker just wants to initiate an interesting discussion about a certain topic?
Anyway, I only ask when I don't have an answer or I ask to find out if my own answer is correct.
RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to edguerin)
quote:
o see/hear a lot of concerts told me he once visited a Cante festival in Japan. He was deeply impressed by the Seguiriyas rendition by a Japanese singer. "It was perfect, really jondo", he commented. Impressed, he wanted to talk to the singer, convinced he had Spanish roots. As it turned out, the guy couldn't speak or understand a word of Spanish! "Still, it was incredibly good", commented my friend.
So what does that prove?
I don’t know what it proves, but the vowel sounds in Japanese are so close to Spanish vowel sounds that for some consonant vowel combinations the muscles in the heads that help speak probably develop in some ways like native Spanish speakers in Spain. And old guys who smoke develop dry voices like old dudes in Andalusia.
There’s probably not a big leap for Japanese speakers to sing with a good accent if they pay close attention to inflection. In the satsuma area where I am the native speakers even eat the ends off words like Andalusia people do.
Konichiwa becomes ‘chawa’ a very clipped ‘ chuwa’ or Koneech
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