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One reason Arcangel Fernandez guitars are expensive is that they are popular in Japan, and people there will pay a lot for them.
Within a week of buying mine in 2000 (1982, absolutely mint, no sign of ever having been played, high price) I started getting offers up to 25% higher from Japan.
The Arcangel is my all-time favorite flamenca--except for a Barbero that belongs to Richard Brune--but is it three or four times as good as my '67 Ramirez blanca? Nope. Both are great guitars, in my opinion. I know at least two people very knowledgeable about guitars, who like the Ramirez better.
The best guitar for one person isn't necessarily the best for someone else.
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
later he introduced a model 1a-b which was above the 2a, but below the 1a and changed the 1a to the 1a EXTRA and if it was in Brazialian rosewood it would be the 1a-EXTRA-R or maybe the 1a-R.
That’s interesting. I have a 1a-b F model from 1996. The only time I have ever saw this model it had a Francisco Barba label on it. Clearly this means Barba made Sanchis.
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Dear Jason,
Regarding your question about the Sanchis A26 model, as far as I know the Sanchis shop did not make this model in Valencia . If memory serves (it’s been many years) it was contracted out to Gibson guitars, who sub contracted out to an outfit in Asia. although Gibson may have sprayed the orange lacquer. I’ve come across a few sunburst models in my years.
P.S I recently heard the guitar you made. Many clients in Spain have been asking for your contact information. I did tell them you were not taking orders, and that they should buy a Conde instead at least until you’re guitars sound like Condes.
I do not possess a Sanchís, but people have also been writing to me....
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Dear Rob,
In response to your recent inquiry for information on how to contact the outfit in Asia in regards to having them “slather” an orange finish on your guitars, we have discussed the matter with them and they have requested you send them a picture of one of your A-26 models. They are concerned because they have recently experienced slather difficulties with the guitars made by a client who resides in Japan. There may be a compatibility issue with the Russian made rosette decals he has adopted as standard for his A-26 product, as the finish appears to interfere with what we believe he refers to as the clairvoyance of the rosette. Apparently, more than one of his customers has complained that this has hindered their ability to establish contact with their “muse”.
If you are using normal stickers then there should be no issues with your A-26 models. We must confess, however, that your request for us to “sing your praises throughout Spain” has been met with some confusion. Who is JasonM?
Well since folks are still adding to this thread I'm going to take more liberties and stir the pot with another question specifically regarding the quality of the wood used in high end flamencos.
My only experience with this important part of guitar making is when I hung around Manuel Diaz's shop in Granada some 20 years ago.I remember loving the smell of sawdust,lacquer and glue and watching as those old tools were put to use.He kindly explained to me how painstaking the selection of wood has to be and showed me his racks of slowly aging tops and necks out of which my first real flamenco guitar was eventually made.
To my question then; is it not just the luthier's art of construction,particular bracing and finishing et al but also the handpicked aged wood,laid down say 20 to 30 years ago that makes a big difference in high end guitars?
Is that not part of the higher prices and also,if such excellent woods are no longer found or at least very rare,is that not another valid reason why certain builders enjoy their great reputation and those corresponding higher prices?
Now I m sure there is indeed some marketing hype and probably no little skulduggery going on but in the end isnt great instrument making a lofty and worthy achievement perfected by only the very few?
Of course as has been mentioned, the market is in no wise logical or even fair sometimes ..
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
I can be brief...
quote:
To my question then; is it not just the luthier's art of construction,particular bracing and finishing et al but also the handpicked aged wood,laid down say 20 to 30 years ago that makes a big difference in high end guitars?
No.
quote:
Is that not part of the higher prices and also,if such excellent woods are no longer found or at least very rare,is that not another valid reason why certain builders enjoy their great reputation and those corresponding higher prices?
No.
quote:
Now I m sure there is indeed some marketing hype and probably no little skulduggery going on but in the end isnt great instrument making a lofty and worthy achievement perfected by only the very few?
No.
Nothing you’ve said there is true. It’s just guitar weenie GAS BS that plays well on the internet and in unscrupulous shops.
In response to your inquiry about this RobF’s response to Johnny cakes inquiry, specifically his response “No”, and later “No”, and especially his response “No”, we can safely say that my uncle’s best friend’s cousin’s ex-partner’s mom’s adopted daughter’s former roommate once actually read part of jose Ramirez III’s book “something about guitars or something”, in which he clearly states that he sawed the final ever board of legally bought Brazil rosewood jacaranda palosanto de Rio Rio in 1960, and has clearly made the last ever legally made guitar negra ever, a long time ago (1980 which we have for sale by the way if your Johnnycake friend is interested at good price)...so that means all guitars since then, negras, are made with black market wood or fake brown wood sprayed to look Rioish in China. The process of spraying fake Rio wood is resulting in one baby seal death per guitar side or back, and as you know this affects the seal pelt market as only adult seals’ pelts are useful for smuggling illegal Rio boards big enough for sides and backs. The strain on the market has now reached guitar builders directly and it’s reflected only in the top builders price tag but is gradually tricking down so we predict eventually Cordoba GK studio negras to reach 5K or more. I hope this was helpful, we are still waiting for the local doctors Response to our inquiry about this “weenie gas” problem as well.
Doesn’t Ramirez say something like half of what makes a good guitar is the wood, and the other is the skill of the builder? As in, wood is just a dead tree carcass. there’s only so much you can control with it. How many baby seals have to be clubbed before the wood is deemed good enough for a guitar?
Ramirez III’s book “something about guitars or something”,
Ahhh, yes, I have this very book in front of me and would like to draw attention to the penultimate chapter, “Choosing a guitar or something”, where he states:
“Unfortunately, there are those who select a guitar for the appearance of the wood, and those I would like to send off to a good furniture store or someplace”. Wise man, that José III.
Doesn’t Ramirez say something like half of what makes a good guitar is the wood, and the other is the skill of the builder?
The wood is always alive and what you consider bad wood in cedar and spruce could be a good piece for tone wood. It all depends on how the wood is worked.
The guitar I built in 1974, when I went back into guitar building, was made out of fence post material and very unsightly. But boy! what a tone.
1. There has never surfaced any hard evidence or admission, only conflicting eye witness Bigfoot-sighting type accounts of people that claim the guitars from Felipe V address were made elsewhere [..] I guess Echi implies Sanchis sprayed the orange poly? Where is the evidence?
Well, I will not offer any evidence here. You will agree it's not the case to share the names of people or friends who told you things confidentially. It doesn’t bother me if someone thinks they are speculations among the many.
I can just repeat here what is already public and discussed in other threads: Felipe and Mariano Conde at the time of the Felipe V shop (1989-2011) used to have just 2 employees: one of them answering the phone and the other working as a luthier. The first is now an employee of Felipe and the latter of Mariano: This is a fact and verifiable in public records. In an interview for a Flamenco magazine Felipe Conde said a specific person would do all the varnishing stage for them but it doesn’t result any employee with this task. It follows that the Conde Felipe V shop outsourced the varnishing process to someone else (btw as very common in Spain).. It's also a fact that Ricardo Sanchis declared to a newspaper and wrote in his website to have had a collaboration with the Conde brothers for may years (without explaining what he did).
It has been aways said that just 2 or 3 fellows should have made all the guitars made in the Felipe V shop. 2 or 3 fellows? According to what publicly written by Mariano in many occasion (Lastly to El Mundo newspaper), just 2 fellows should have built and varnished all the output of the Felipe V shops. Mariano also wrote that his brother Felipe never build a guitar, but let's ignore it for now.
Having said this, everybody can assess the output of the shop and decide what to believe to.
BTW the A series is nothing but the first class series of the Felipe V shop as Atocha and Gravina had their own equivalent models.
Thank you Tom, On Monday I spoke with Araceli Lopez Juarque, who is the wife of Ricardo Sanchis Carpio and mother of the Hermanos Sanchis Lopez. She runs the business end of the organization. She denies any knowledge of any A-26 Model. They have never made such a model. She asks if the number A-26 might be a serial number and not the model number. If indeed the guitar in question is of a model number A-26 then it might be a guitar by Vicente Sanchis. Vicente Sanchis Badia is the uncle of Ricardo Sanchis Carpio. He inherited the business from his father Ricardo Sanchis Nacher who was the great-grandfather of the Hermanos Sanchis Lopez. He was the founder of the Sanchis factory....which is what the Vicente Sanchis organization was. When Ricardo Sanchis Nacher won the Spanish National Lottery ("The Fat Prize" El Premio Gordo) he invested the money in a guitar factory. He built the best guitars himself even building several guitars for Agustin Barrios Mangore. Upon his death in 1960, Ricardo Sanchis Carpio took his share of the inheritance and went out on his own and started the shop "Ricardo Sanchis Carpio" which today is "Hermanos Sanchis Lopez". 1998 would have been very close to the time in which the Vicente Sanchis factory went out of business. This happened because no one in the ownership of the company knew how to build a guitar and could effectively lead the company. Unfortunately, such a situation is not sustainable. I hope that this helps you to identify the guitar in question.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
The latest news I received from my friend:
Tom, either you are not on the same page as us or you were trying to trick those people into a Freudian slip of tongue?
A-26 is CONDE HERMANOS!!!!!!!!!!! Specifically Felipe V address from 1989-2010.
YOU sir asked if it was made by Sanchis (because my guitar is orange?😂).
At this point please clarify if you are simply confused or were you trying to get the Sanchis family to admit they used to (or still) build A level guitars for the Conde brothers who never learned how to build a guitar and simply pretended to for decades? Everybody already understands Sanchis doesn’t designate A-26 to any guitar ever.
Or ask your friend the direct question “Did Sanchis build guitars with no labels in bulk and sell them to CONDE HERMANOS and ship them to the Felipe V address in Madrid in the late 90’s.”.
Quote: The fact YOU asked if MY A26 was built by Sanchis shows the persistence of the myth, and the fact you received a confused message by someone closely associated with Sanchis that didn’t even know what an A26 (lowest student model Sanchis? Unquote:
If you notice, I was stating that my friend was saying that most likely the guitar was not a Sanchis model.
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
She denies any knowledge of any A-26 Model.
“Yeah ... we’ve been building steel string acoustics here for generations. But we ain’t heard of no D28... whats that some kind of vacuum cleaner or somethin?
Ha-ha you guys are hilarious! We dont need no stinking badges lol!
Anyway to revisit my " got wood" post. I'd like to share another tidbit from my admittedly brief experience with Spanish lutherie.
At Manel Diaz's shop in Granada some years ago while he was showing me the tops,necks/head stocks patiently aging away and pointing out their tight grain and other features; he brought out a top that had been fitted with if memory serves,a cardboard frame mimicking a complete guitar.Its purpose he explained was to demonstrate how the top is the major part in the sound of a guitar and the back and sides play a much lesser role.
Now while cypress ,exotic woods for the back and sides plus a responsive and lively neck are all part of a beautiful guitar I'm sure some may feel that it can get out of hand and indeed there may be way too much windowdressing going on these days.
Still my fond memories of watching guitars being slowly put togeather with that carefully selected wood leads me to think that this is all part of the mystique and art of great guitareros. A buddy of mine had '54 black beauty les paul that I played and recorded with for awhile and man did that guitar have mojo! I know..different animal but good wood will out and so 50 years down the road a good guitar is only going to get better.
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
Dear Jonnycakes,
Thank you for explaining what it is that makes a good expensive guitar but, here at the Foro, we have found it much more effective to further one’s views if the information is presented in the form of a self-addressed letter.
The generally accepted format for this missive is to first delineate it from the introductory portion of the post with a separate line of dashes, which serves to alert fellow members that real deal dirt* is about to follow. Letters always formally address the recipient, and no indication is to be given as to whom to attribute the authorship.
While this may seem unusual to one unfamiliar with the mores of the Foro, we have found it has afforded limited success in avoiding some of the more intense brouhahas that the Foro has become famed for, the Great Donnybrook of oh Eighteen springs to mind...
While examples can easily be found on these pages, we have taken the liberty to provide you with a sample form letter that can be cut and pasted to preface future informative posts (see below):
——————————- (dashes to indicate start of missive)————-
Dear Jonny,
(Insert real deal dirt here)
Sincerely, (Remember, Foro protocol dictates this missive remain unsigned and uncredited, so please Do NOT include the Sincerely, )
*As an aside, we are not sure what to make of the recent post of a long standing member, which does appear to contain Bona fide real deal dirt but inexplicably has omitted the dash delineation. Suffice to say a stern warning has been sent to the rascal, and one hopes this will be sufficient to convince him to adhere to established standards in future posts.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
If you notice, I was stating that my friend was saying that most likely the guitar was not a Sanchis model.
Um, Tom? Earth to Tom? Come in Tom!!!! NOBODY except for yourself thinks that “A-26” is a model name given to a SANCHIS. They have their OWN models and fancy names for their guitars. “A-26” refers ONLY TO CONDE GUITARS from the address FELIPE V MADRID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The question remains, which you DID NOT ASK YOUR FRIEND, whether or not Sanchis built guitars FOR CONDE HERMANOS FELIPE V MADRID. I have already seen hard evidence that Sanchis DID INFACT build guitars for CONDE HERMANOS ATOCHA MADRID. AFter they build a “conde” guitar they SHIP it to ATOCHA MADRID, and then Conde sticks their own sticker in there and calls the guitar whatever model number or name they want, SANCHIS would NOT CARE LESS about what those model numbers end up being called. They obviously just make to a plan and send the thing off.
The reason it matters is simple. The ATOCHA CONDE looks and costs (at the time) the same as Sanchis....$1500. The A-26 CONDE HERMANOS has a different plantilla etc and costs (at the time) $5000!!!! The claims are that FELIPE V MADRID CONDE HERMANOS were, and continue to pass off a $1500 guitar for $5000 to $10,000 (today).
So asking Sanchis if they make a “A-26” means nothing without the specific Conde address information as part of the LINE OF INQUIRY.
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
Hi Jonny, if you’re ever in the mood to take a few pictures then I wouldn’t mind seeing your new Conde, but even more, I’d like to see your Diaz.
I’ve visited his shop a number of times over the years, and he’s always been a great guy to chat with. I’ve also been in his son Victor’s shop, and his other son Francesco has become quite close to a friend of mine, to the extent that he spent a couple of months visiting him in Georgia in 2018 to help him rearrange his workspace. We had also discussed the possibility of me spending some time in Francesco’s shop in Granada last spring where he was going to show me how he applies their Granada ‘viejo oro’ tinted finish, but COVID came along and put an end to that.
So, yeah, it would be great to see some pics of your Diaz guitar, maybe on a new thread? He doesn’t get much exposure on here.
Manuel is a great maker and I have been told Victor is particularly good as well. I too used to chat with him in his shop of Cuesta de Gomerez.
My 2 cents here are that Sanchis Lopez never made any 1st class (A series) Conde from calle Felipe V. Consistent rumors speak of a collaboration of the Sanchis Carpio company with Julliana Conde (Calle Gravina from '89) and Conde of Calle Atocha.
What may have done Ricardo Sanchis himself (as an independent luthier) is a different story.
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
Off to see the wizard.. Time to see what the fuss is all about regarding my teacher's remaining 2 guitars. Thought I'd post a few pix of this lovely guitar just in case I make a deal in the next couple days and she goes back to her original master. 3 choices here..trade her in and all my cash for the Arcangel, buy another Conde ..or walk away with what I have already and call it a day! No matter what it'll be a privilege to have time to compare all three and see my teacher again. Cheers everybody! Jonathan
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RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
That’s kind of funny. Your Conde looks almost exactly the same as mine, same hue, same rosette, same style of bridge, even the wood on the back has a similar undulation in the grain. They could be twins.
Ok here goes.. Had a great visit with teacher and lots of time to compare all 3 guitars. 2000 Phillipe Conde; Amazingly like a grand piano,super clean almost new from very little use..the loudest guitar of the bunch. Handpicked from 3 in that Seville shop and described as very macho..
1983 Conde..super familiar to me,ton of developed character and sweet tone..quietest of the 3..feminine not macho
1994 Archangel..yeah that's what the fuss is all about..so much character, ease of playability ,amazing overtones and fit like an old softball glove even though in close to mint shape.. surely the best flamenco guitar I've ever had in my hands.. I played them all coming back to the new conde a lot and listened while teacher played some of the same things on each guitar.. For affordability the new Philippe is the one and with it's super clear throaty Conde tone it really made an impression. Like I said.. sounded like listening to a grand piano..crystal clear highs all the mids you could want etc What's not to like..still quite formidable in volume.
But you know,my little Conde has such a nice sweet tone and easy feel plus that same great Conde bark that, even if not very loud ...it would take something to blow my socks off to let her go.At 37 shes in pretty good shape as well.
At the end it became simple..the Arcangel is really something special..never mind the ',investment' aspect. I may not know flamenco guitars like many here but I do know after playing all these years what a great guitar feels like. you could ship me away to a desert isle and just leave me there with this one..it felt so good..I dont know how to describe the approachable flat perfect neck and how easy it felt to play..light or digging in was all great. And the overtones and resonance were truly out of this world.. No controversy here on who built it and why they command such prices..and I really only need just one flamenco..if it was this one I really dont think I'd need another
So to sum up I guess I'm going to see what my '83 Conde and my 2000 Diaz will fetch even though teacher will take them back in trade..so let's see ...also sell my car( I dont use it much anymore) sell my kid off for medical experiments and try and make this guitar my own..
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
There is no such thing as “Phillipe Conde year of our lord 2000”.
quote:
And there is no such thing as 2000 Phillipe conde. There is Felipe Conde jr and Sr since 2011 or so. And there was once conde hermanos from the Felipe V address, but those had model numbers that are important to know. For example I have an AF25 from 2000, (one of the three of course).
But you insist on describing it like that, fine. Sounds like you are going for the Arcangel. Hope it works out.
In response to your above post Ricardo I can only refer to what my teacher has told me in regards to this 2000 Conde. I have put into my own words what I recall from this conversation;
" at first I wasnt interested in any new Condes what with all the infighting,lousy guitars and all the now different shops contributing to the controversy. But my friend and owner convinced me to check them out.I was glad I did because they were in fact great guitars,I picked what I felt was the best of these three on hand and bought it."
And below( in his own words) copied from our messenger chat;
"Just talked to Postigo. So. It's the same model . They changed the name to FC26 (Felipe Conde) from A 26 after the split when he went independent and now the price is 9,600 euros. Anyway, FOR YOU (only) I will still sell for what I first told you."
Obviously I dont have the detailed knowledge and experience needed to possibly refute any claims made here in my humble post but I very much trust and respect my teacher's choices and will continue to do so.
This particular Conde is an amazing guitar,I really wanted to decide to buy it and bring it home along with it's 'older' sister and maybe after some time, decide to keep only one or somehow keep both. But I really only need one because i'm not touring at all and only interested in having the best guitar that suits me. In an offhand remark my teacher said " most would choose the Conde but I sense you are making a ' players' decision to go with the Arcangel. "
Be that as it may - like I said previously in the end ...if I was going to throw over my '83 Conde for another,it would have to be this one.
Possibly I might change my mind in regards to the Phillipe if I'm unable to carry out my bold plan but the clock is ticking as there's a buyer in place for the 2000 who's only waiting for the border to re-open.
Btw,the concept of ' macho' and feminine in regards to guitar personality is intriguing and I would welcome any further comments in this regard.
To my mind the '94 Arcangel is both ' macho' and feminine at the same time if it's possible to describe it that way..
RE: My Faustino Conde story (in reply to Jonnycake)
quote:
2000 Conde
quote:
in regards to the Phillipe
to reiterate what Ricardo has said, there is no such thing as a "Phillipe" Conde, and the "2000 Conde" if it's from the year 2000 CANNOT be a "Felipe Conde".
There are two "Felipe" Conde's AND an address at calle "Felipe V" (Felipe Quinta).
There are "Conde Hermanos" guitars from Calle "Felipe V" (up to about 2010) which was the address of the shop run by Felipe Conde Sr and his brother Mariano. Since the split in 2010 they have both moved to other premises and trade as "Felipe Conde" and "Mariano Conde"
There are "Felipe Conde" guitars from Calle "Arrieta 4" since 2011 and Felipe Sr's son Felipe Jr has joined him there. His guitars are labelled "Felipe Conde Crespo" at that address.
There are also "Hermanos Conde" guitars from Faustino at Calle Gravina, as in your pictures above, although after Faustino passed at the end of the 80's quality apparently nosedived, and that shop has now closed down (someone posted a pic of the premises a few years ago, I think it had become an underwear shop or something).
And finally there are "Guitarras Conde" at the "Atocha" address, not so relevant here...
This may seem like splitting hairs, but it can affect both quality and price.
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