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TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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 RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Personally I wouldnt buy a new guitar. A several years old guitar, and maybe played by a flamenco, is the best, coz the sound of the wood gets better the more you play it.
Several months ago I planned to buy Hermanos Sanchis Carpio 2F new for 800 euro. I tried it but was unsure after. I expected more, especially from the sound of the trebles. I had a very specific flamenco tone in mind, which I was used to from the CDs I have. The GipsyKings have this sound.
Then, on a coincident a friend of mine bought a guitar on ebay. A "real" flamenco from 1976. Its the sort of sound that is "in front of your face". Firstly he didnt want to give it away, but at the end I payed 500 euro on a sound, which is so much superior to the 800euro Carpio, you wouldnt believe it!
If you wait and search, you'll get a better guitar for less money than just going into one shop and buy the best affordable guitar you can find there in that moment imo!
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Фламенко
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Date Feb. 19 2006 16:29:56
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
And James what about those cejillas? I remember someone suggesting a foro version? Any chance
Nigel, yes this might be possible. Although I still need to perfect the technique and improve my knowledge of construction methods. The Pedro De Miguel capo I duplicated was fairly simple, it was just layers of veneer and wood sandwiched together, then cut to shape. But some of those Conde type capos are much more complex, and I have to admit that they fascinate me. Unfortunately there isn't much info available on traditional cejilla making (I did try the usual book suppliers, etc). when I get time, I'll google it, and see what comes up. It would be nice to eventually integrate writing into the cejilla... not just written on, but actually embedded into the wood. It might not be easy, but if I ever find a solution, personalised capos and advertising would be quite possible too.
As for my first guitar, lets just wait and see if the thing is playable!  It won't be perfect, but hey, its my "first guitar". I'm sure even The Great Anders' first guitar wasn't as good as the ones he makes today. Its actually starting to look like a guitar though, which is nice. And I haven't come across any major problems other than getting small cracks when bending the ribs (sides) to shape. But lets wait and see...
Back to guitar prices... I can understand mid price range guitars like 700 Euros for one of Anders'. Its a fair price to pay for a quality instrument. I have an electric guitar for a similar price, and you get what you pay for to some extent. But I'm more concerned with the top-end guitars... are they worth the money? I don't think I could ever justify spending more than about £1000 on a guitar unless I was a professional guitarist.
Thanks,
Jb
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Date Feb. 19 2006 18:50:56
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Once he bought a Ramirez 1A, which is supposed to be a very expensive guitar. I think the price was 10,000 euro!!!
He said from the point of the sound it was worth it, but the guitar would be not easy to play.
In any case James: How are you going to "measure" if its worth?
The only thing one can say is: Yes, the more expensive, the better will the sound probably be. But that is very vague; first because its only probability, second you cant say "the sound is twice as good", but you can say "its twice as expansive"...
(third everybody seems to have a different view on good sound)
10,000 Euros?!! You could buy a pretty good car for that price! I suppose you're right though, that what is a "good" sound is relative. But at least, for that price I'd want it to sound "muy Flamenco", if not damn perfect. I think it also depends on how seriously you take your music, and how good you are at playing...
Jb
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Date Feb. 19 2006 20:17:58
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Guest
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
When you consider guitar prices you can consider "is it worth it?", but there's also another side to it. A luthier makes a small number of guitars a year. Aaron Green for example that was mentioned in a recent thread makes 12 guitars a year. Lester Devoe makes 24. Now I have no idea at all how much the materials cost, but you can see that if AG gets on average $6000 a guitar, his total revenue is $72000. How much do the materials cost of 12 guitars? $20k? $30k? Anyway you see you end up with about $40k-$50k sallary a year which in the US which is where AG is, is not a high salary.
That´s exactly the point. Guitars cost money because someone has to work!!!!!! It takes many hours to make a handbuild instrument. If I was to earn the same money as a car machanic here in Spain.... My guitars should cost 3000 - 3500 euros standard model, no extras. I f I was to earn the same as a car mechanic in Denmark....... 5 - 6000 euros!!!!
Besides James you are mixing up things. You are concerned about expensive guitars, but you are the first to compare with a 200 pound Yamaha!!!! (How dare you, bad boy  ) You also compare handbuild guitars with cars  Oh my god what is this?
A tiny bit of respect please 
Materials for a guitar is not that expensive, but investment is high because you have to store goods for a long time with the chance that goods will crack etc.
I´m a happy builder, because I like what I doo, but It´s not because of the money. Everyone who´s been here and has seen my home and workshop will say that I´m not getting rich by doing this. But don´t worry, I´m happy and I have enough to put a tiny part to the side as savings
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Date Feb. 20 2006 8:47:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I come from a family who apreciated fine classical guitars. I am in posession of one such instrument. I guess we are talking 20-30k? I don't understand, and never will, why guitars apreciate that way. To me guitars under 10k are a good deal. Under 3k are toys. Now as a more advanced player, I apreciate the subtle differences in sound, but still don't see how that warrents the differences in price. I could do a flamenco show with a $300 Yamaha, but a 20K Smallman would be useless to me.
But this is the way it goes. As a player, I have played guitars much more expensive than my fav. conde. But they could not replace it sound and feel wise. Yet I understand and respect why they are priced differently. Now conde has jumped up price wise since what I paid for it. The guitar is more valuable to me because I can't replace it the way I could have 9 years ago. So, when a guitar gets a good rep. for whatever reason, the price goes up, but that doesn't mean it is THAT much better than another guitar MUCH cheaper. Yet, there is a REASON the the price went up.
The other thing is, there are guitars with great potential that never get played. They end up not sounding so good for some reason. My friend had a cheap Cordoba (that he beat rumba n for years) that I would have prefered to use to an unplayed Gerondino I tried. It was more "flamenco". I think there is a similar thing that happens to classical guitars. So in the end, the price of a guitar is whatever the player is willing to spend for it, and if he plays it, it was worth it. For all other cases, it is an investment that will hopefully appreciate in value.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 20 2006 10:07:55
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Now that you mention it, you are right about the luthier needing a fair wage. If it takes 2 months to build a guitar, thats 6 guitars per year. The luthier would have to charge a minimum of £2000 just to earn £12,000 per year. And £12, 000 per year is not a lot to live on at all. When you do the maths, I think if I was a pro luthier I'd want to earn more than 12k per year, after all, there are expenses to think of, like tools, etc. And I know first-hand how difficult it is to make guitars, as I'm in the process of doing so myself. So actually 2,300 Euros is a very good price for a handmade guitar.
I didn't mean to directly compare handmade guitars to cars, as obviously most cars are manufactured by machine. But I once heard someone say that "a car is usually the biggest investment purchase you will make in life after your house". For some people, I think their guitar would replace the car in this statement. And perhaps some people have similar attitudes to their cars as guitarists have toward their guitars.
I like that saying, Samwise... "Life's too short to play a cheap guitar!". But I do meet people who say its not the price of the guitar, but the way you play them. Within reason... obviously a very cheap guitar will always sound cheap. But beyond a certain point, once you have the best woods and materials, and best cosntruction methods... isn't it virtually impossible to get any better?
But a 20-30k guitar... I can't say, because I've never played one, but I really would want it to be the epitome of perfection in every way.
Jb
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Date Feb. 20 2006 12:44:29
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Well, you can buy coffee every day or ... not, if you dont want to. A guitar is a one-time investment, 5,000 euro...gone in one second ka-ching! :)
If it would be possible to "buy" a guitar for one or two dollar per day (with insurance), then you could compare it to coffee, btw if there woulde be such an option that would be pretty cool isnt it?! Id buy immediately a Conde.
Of course you would have to buy it for at least weeks or months to adapt your technique to it, find out where it sounds better etc. but overall it would be a good deal. You could change your guitar anytime you want. And you could try the guitar more intensively, maybe before you "really" buy it.
Guys, I have a dream!  (obviously that was more a joke, but who knows, I dont because Im no prophet and not that good at forseeing the future ;) )
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Date Feb. 20 2006 17:29:23
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gshaviv
Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
I wasn't talking about a $30K guitar.
I'm talking about a guitar in the range of $3500-6000.
Agreed. The $4000-$8000 range guitars you are basically paying for the luthier's livelihood plus perhaps a little brand name here and there which is fine. Going beyond that I think you are entering the realm of colletors items and then prices don't have anything to do with quality. Rarity, history etc. may affect the price more.
Think about a Van Gogh painting, why would one pay a few million dollars for one? Its just old paint on old canvas?
quote:
But I once heard someone say that "a car is usually the biggest investment purchase you will make in life after your house".
Generally true. But consider a good plasma TV for example, that can easily cost $4000-$6000, like a luthier made guitar. Now I don't watch TV at all, so I don't understand why someone would spend so much on a TV, I'de rather spend it on my hobbie, which gives me pleasure every day. The way I see it, the money I invested in getting a guitar from Green is money well spent, I will enjoy every dollar I spent, every day.
I have two friends which are audiophiles, they invested probably $30k each on their home entertainment system ($5k for a TV, 5 speakers at $4k each, a receiver...). Now to me that is a waste of money. To them its not, they can hear the difference between a $3k speaker and a $5k speaker.
for those of us that do it as a hobbie, it all comes down to how much you are willing to spend on your hobbie. We have a great hobbie and its not that expensive considering other hobbies people have.
For those of us that do is professionally, you could get in to the ROI argument, will spending $6k on a guitar pay back? I think even for pros there's what a good guitar makes them feel about themselves which is important.
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Guy
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Date Feb. 20 2006 20:43:36
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Francisco
Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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But I do meet people who say its not the price of the guitar, but the way you play them. Within reason... obviously a very cheap guitar will always sound cheap.
I agree, it's not so much the instrument as it is the musician. I've seen a blind guy with no arms play very well with his feet on an old beat up guitar with a few extra sound holes
I don't think the goal when buying a $3000 guitar is to make one a better musician by virtue of the price or quality of the guitar alone, and anyone with this as their sole purpose for purchasing a guitar would be better off spending that cash on some private lessons in Spain.
Is that to say that a higher priced guitar would do nothing for your playing? Not necessarily. I can't speak for everyone, but I think if I payed that kind of money for a guitar, and it was the guitar of my dreams (so to speak), then I would probably be inspired to play/practice it more. And that's what it's really about, isn't it? So, in an indirect way, I contend that it would make your playing better. I'm looking foward to placing my order very soon.
quote:
But beyond a certain point, once you have the best woods and materials, and best cosntruction methods... isn't it virtually impossible to get any better?
It probably is difficult to "get better", but when you buy a guitar, you're not only buying a box of wood with strings. There other intangables (sp?) that come into play. I mean, let's face, they really are pieces of art. I think the story of the 8 cow wife applies on some level to this discussion.
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Date Feb. 21 2006 3:52:28
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: TH£ PRIC£ OF GUITAR$ (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
Going beyond that I think you are entering the realm of colletors items and then prices don't have anything to do with quality.
Easy to say until you have owned and played one regularly yourself. The details in quality don't seem to be equivalent to mark up, but it is hard to go down in quality once you get used to it. I think flamenco players are luckier than classical guitarists. The guitar the top flamenco players use (usually conde, reyes, gerendino, ramirez, barba, DeVoe, etc) is typically under 10K. I don't buy into the story of how the best instruments are saved for the top players. I played Nunez's favorite conde, and it was no different than others I have played same make and model, stock Felipe V A26. A lot of folks say that is an overpriced factory guitar, but he prefered it to his Reyes that he waited years for.
Most likely the top players pick an instrument they like, and the more they use it the better it starts to sound. PDL probably has not paid full price for a guitar since he has been famous. Don't delude yourself into thinking the BEST flamenco player must simply be in possession of the BEST flamenco guitar possible.
The top classical players use instruments in the 20K+ range. Segovia was often given guitars free to use in concert and for recordings. But other top players probaby had to pay just like students. And I have known students who really save up or get a loan or whatever to get the 20k Smallman or some other nice classical guitar. Flamenco guitar pros and students are much luckier in that respect. You can get a good flamenco guitar for use as an accomp. for under $2000.
Now think of what your average double bass player in the symphony has to deal with. You know, they need to find a bass from the 18th century which is over 30K. Guitars are cheap.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 21 2006 20:26:01
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