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CITES Indien Rosewood
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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 RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to johnguitar)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnguitar
As far as I know, if a wood species is in Appendix II, the restrictions are not the same as Appendix I. Madagascar Rosewood is in Appendix II so we can take that as an example although I have no information that Indian Rosewood will be treated in the same way. Madagascar R. is restricted only in raw wood form including logs, sawn sets and veneer. However, no import permit is needed, only an export permit. Furthermore, once it is made into a guitar it is not restricted because it is a finished consumer product. The idea is to make it hard to get the wood out of the country of origin to discourage logging of the species. For guitar-makers this means that we can continue to buy these woods and continue to sell guitars made with them without CITES certification because no certification exisits for these woods.
The entire Dalbergia genus has been moved to Appendix II (regulated trade) except Brazilian rosewood is still in Appendix I (no commercial trade). For more details and background, see the CoP17 Prop. 55 detailed proposal - it is 50 pages - available at https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/cop/17/prop/060216/E-CoP17-Prop-55.pdf
This starts 90 days from CITES adopting it. They adopted it in early October, and posted a notice on November 7. Here's the notice (page 6): https://cites.org/sites/default/files/notif/E-Notif-2016-057.pdf which specifies Jan 2, 2017 starting date for the new rules.
For East Indian rosewood (and other new entrants) this means that Appendix II rules start to apply - they are in Article IV of the CITES convention at https://cites.org/eng/disc/text.php#IV (see below).
You are right that this mostly involves regulating through (re-)export permitting. For existing wood stock, it generally means getting a "pre-convention certificate" or equivalent. For the US, for example, the form is this: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-23.pdf
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Date Nov. 17 2016 0:07:25
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Estevan)
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According to the report Estevan linked, the Chinese are not gobbling up dalbergia latifolia, the "indian Rosewood" commonly used in guitars, but they are consuming huge quantities of Dalbergia stevensonii (Honduran rosewood), Milletia laurentii (Wenge/African rosewood), and Dalbergia melanoxylon (Ebony or African Blackwood), all of which are used in guitar making, though less often than Indian Rosewood.
There's a good bit of Chinese style "rosewood" furniture for sale in Hawai'i and Guam, though all that I have looked at closely has been cheaper wood with a relatively uniform fine grain pattern, stained a phony shade of red.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 25 2016 2:17:52
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Vince)
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quote:
For your information!
All Dalbergia included EI Rosewood will be listed on CITES II starting in January 2017.
Next year you need a CITES Dokument for selling Guitars with Dalbergia spp.
Here is the official link in german
https://www.bfn.de/0305_cites_holz_cop16.html
I remember that a Dalbergia nigra document used to cost about 12 dollars in Germany years ago compared to a closure in the US. This cost enabled guitar makers in Germany to produce and ship guitars to where the US was basically shut down from, out of the country, sales.
I had a Brazilian girl who lived with us years ago whose father owned the largest (lumber) company in Curvello. He sent his man to Amazonia to where Jacaranda trees were just laying on the ground, and cut a beautiful board, about 10 guitars worth, and he could not get it out of the country, for me, in raw board form to where the German loggers had some kind of deal to ship their rosewood out of the country in raw board form.
I thought, at the time, that the Germans took care of their guitar makers a lot better than the US government. Consequently the Brazilians burned down a lot of their forest land for farming, so did the beautiful Jacaranda go up in smoke. A sad statement to a beautiful species of wood that could have been a lasting tribute to the art.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Nov. 25 2016 15:07:20
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I asked Cites Denmark what was needed if I sold a guitar to an Australian client that came to my workshop and picked up the guitar.
I was told that since it was sold within the EU, it wasnt an export and so did not need any CITES papers. CITES Australia said it needed Cites papers.
It makes totally sense, because burocracy has always been like that.
Well this does make sense, given that the rule is about wood export but is typically being enforced at the point of import to another country.
So as far as the EU is concerned, a commercial transaction happened within its borders, so export did not even enter the equation. But as soon as that client tries to return to Australia, they will ask him for his export certificate to prove it is a legitimate purchase of App II wood (we are assuming non-Brazilian rosewood). So if the Australian guy ever wants to leave the EU, he better get an export certificate, and might as well do it at the time of the commercial transaction.
Well, actually it could be looked at in another way and thats what the Danish authorities believe:
The guitar is bought within the EU and doesnt need CITES and since a privat person can travel free with a personal instrument without cites papers (except app 1) there´s no need to make any paperwork.
Personally I dont care what is right or wrong. I just want to stay out of trouble and help my clients. So the old burocracy rule works here as well:
Make all the paperwork that is possible, even though it may not be necessary. That way you have kind of peace in mind and you will hopefully stay out of trouble.
It has the benefit of keeping the jobs in the little offices and you also know why you have to pay so much in tax.. 
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date May 9 2017 9:04:59
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I asked Cites Denmark what was needed if I sold a guitar to an Australian client that came to my workshop and picked up the guitar.
I was told that since it was sold within the EU, it wasnt an export and so did not need any CITES papers. CITES Australia said it needed Cites papers.
It makes totally sense, because burocracy has always been like that.
Well this does make sense, given that the rule is about wood export but is typically being enforced at the point of import to another country.
So as far as the EU is concerned, a commercial transaction happened within its borders, so export did not even enter the equation. But as soon as that client tries to return to Australia, they will ask him for his export certificate to prove it is a legitimate purchase of App II wood (we are assuming non-Brazilian rosewood). So if the Australian guy ever wants to leave the EU, he better get an export certificate, and might as well do it at the time of the commercial transaction.
Well, actually it could be looked at in another way and thats what the Danish authorities believe:
The guitar is bought within the EU and doesnt need CITES and since a privat person can travel free with a personal instrument without cites papers (except app 1) there´s no need to make any paperwork.
From Australia's point of view, that person left without a guitar and came back with a guitar. So this is not the same as leaving and returning with the same guitar. I think the US already has specific instructions that this is not a gray area - i.e. you have to have left and returned with the same guitar for it to count as non-commercial movement not needing a certificate. Of course as as practical matter maybe nothing will happen at the point of entry - but you are playing the odds and some people may not be comfortable with that.
I used to think that a gray area existed where you happen to travel around, then on a whim decide to buy a guitar where you are as a visitor, then from the point of becoming the guitar's owner it is yours so therefore the return trip to your home country is you travelling with your personal guitar as a non-commercial movement. However, authorities in at least the US and probably elsewhere are making it explicit in their guidelines that the non-commerical travel exception only applies if you left and returned with the same guitar - which makes logical sense in terms of the intent of the rule, though it is annoying being applied to guitars and furniture in the same way.
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Date May 9 2017 16:48:52
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