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Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitbox
I think it's not just about involving the middle joint more (PIP), although that's a good observation and start. There needs to be an exchange of work from MCP(large knuckle) to middle and tip (PIP and DIP) at the moment the string is impacted. That's not to say the MCP is not involved, it's highly involved, but its involvement is in front of the string and to the string and then it gives the work over to the PIP/DIP. It's like a relay race, once on the string the MCP is changing directions. If you keep pushing through the string from MCP on rest or free strokes at that moment, the strokes no longer feel easy and light.
I see Paco passively hyper-extending his DIP joints on all fingers whether it's free stroke or rest stroke. He may not always do it for every free stroke but I've seen him do it more than once on every finger. It may just be, as someone already mentioned, that his fingers just don't bend that far. There's no question in my mind that he's not holding them rigid unless he is intending to get that kind of sound.
Rest strokes and collapsing tips complicates the model for the stroke because it may be that when you collapse the DIP fully, the DIP is actually now in a good position to add some amount of flexion itself. So, the release may actually be PIP AND DIP flexion and at that exact moment of release the MCP is changing directions. It could be that Paco's small range of DIP motion may advantage him for picado if he can then use a tiny DIP flexion to release the string. -- just a hypothesis, I'm not saying it's the truth.
You can see him collapsing on all fingers for free strokes to some degree here.
And here you are again. So I talked about some of this in this thread already but since you missed it perhaps I will restate. You are correct all 3 joints of the fingers are involved, but you have the mechanics exactly backward. The "pip" as you call it is not used to pull or drive the string, it is moving to reset position. If it moves much at all. At the point of attack it stiffens to allow the MCP to push on through the string. And the complex workings of the tip joint flex or NOT (it necessarily does one or the other) will have to do with the string crossings and orientation of the two fingers and hand relative to each other.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to payaso)
I disagree, look at the Paco video I posted, he's collapsing his DIP most of the time. Then go to the slow moe page it's on and watch all kinds of players collapsing, Flamenco and classical. Pepe Romero is collapsing almost all the time. Vicente Amigo has a huge amount of DIP collapse. Grisha collapses too if you look at the slow motion. Of course some don't do it, or say they don't do it and when you watch their hands they actually do, it's certainly variable. But it is occurring quite frequently.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
I'm sorry but I can't agree with you about this. It may be that some flamenco players do rest strokes with a fixed middle joint (PIP -- proximal interphalangeal joint) and push hard through the string using just the MCP, but I've seen many who do not do it that way. They use a powerful MCP (knuckle joint flexion) for sure, but then transfer the work to the PIP joint for the actual release of the string. It's very likely they do it that way and don't even notice since you'd need a closeup and slow motion video to see what's really going on at high speed. If you want to post a video demonstrating it with a closeup that might be helpful, then we can all see what you mean.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitbox
I disagree, look at the Paco video I posted, he's collapsing his DIP most of the time. Then go to the slow moe page it's on and watch all kinds of players collapsing, Flamenco and classical. Pepe Romero is collapsing almost all the time. Vicente Amigo has a huge amount of DIP collapse. Grisha collapses too if you look at the slow motion. Of course some don't do it, or say they don't do it and when you watch their hands they actually do, it's certainly variable. But it is occurring quite frequently.
Wow...I admitted that collapsing happens...but it doesn't always happen it depends on the situation specifically. Guess I'm gonna have to make a vid too.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
Here's Grisha doing rest strokes (yes I know it has other free strokes intermingled, but he does it the same when it's all single note rest strokes). Watch how he is NOT keeping his middle joint (PIP) rigid, his tip joints collapse, and he drags the finger across the string from the middle joint.
Certainly he's using a powerful knuckle joint flexion here, but he's releasing the string with a tiny amount of middle joint flexion along with probably a little tip joint flexion after it collapses fully. No rigid middle joint here for sure
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
Working the middle joint, the large knuckle, collapsing the DIP. Sounds like we're discussing flamenco porn. But then a guitar has been compared to a woman.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
olé BarkellWH
guitbox, does this kind of analysis really help you? Yes I collapse the tip joint sometimes, sometimes not. It depends of the situation like ricardo said. So what do you wan't to discuss actually? Or what do you wan't to proof us with all those videos?
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
guitbox, does this kind of analysis really help you? Yes I collapse the tip joint sometimes, sometimes not. It depends of the situation like ricardo said. So what do you wan't to discuss actually? Or what do you wan't to proof us with all those videos?
It has helped me to start recovering from focal dystonia and an incorrect model for plucking that I had used for over 20 years that injured me. The videos are directly related to the first video in the first post by Miquel. The videos are just further supporting proof of the correctness of what he is saying. So, it's 100% on topic with this discussion. Did you watch that first video by Miguel? In not, you should, since that explains precisely what this topic is all about.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
ridiculous. I don't get the whole point of those videos.
Yes, a little silly. I used this one to point out that even playing air guitar, he is not moving just using a main thrust from the main knuckle joint (MCP), he's using MCP, but much more PIP movement. AND, notice how he has trained his a-c fingers to move together. I think it's very telling how his fingers are trained to move this way even away from the guitar. (sadly, it's not what he teaches you to do in his method pumping nylon)
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Miguel de Maria wrote: Hey, we haven't talked about this for at least three months, so...
So, you guys seem intent on trashing anything I'm saying or post about how to pluck, but everything I'm saying is directly related to what Miguel says in his video above, and he started the topic. Do you also think Miguel is totally wrong in his observations about the role of the middle joint? He can chime in himself, but I've talked with him and I think he sees the same things I'm observing in our own hands but also in the videos of the pros. Did you not watch his video? In my opinion he's spot on correct.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
a and c finger move naturally together, and there is no reason to train them to not move together, you should be able to move i m and a individually but that a and c move together is ok, since you are not playing arpegios with c. But what's the point of your observation? What about people who stretching out their pinky when doing picado (like paco or vicente)? is that bad or good? and people like manolo sanlucar who not stretching out their pinky, they do it wrong? Or is it just not important because it doesn't really have a big impact on your picado? I get the impression that you are just a bit confused.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)
No, you're confusing what I said. The video you grabbed from my page and posted here is not one I would have used on this flamenco site, it was a reply to a specific person on the delcamp classical guitar form for my topic : Right Hand Technique & Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos.
In classical guitar playing, being relaxed is very important and holding the pinky erect totally puts tension in that side of the palm. The fact that many people, myself included, had a pinky that wanted to stick out is a clear sign it just doesn't naturally follow the a finger for everyone. Some of us have to work hard at training those two fingers to move together. It seems like you're just looking for something to argue about, I get it, these forums can be very alpha-male and you have to make my comments seem pointless. It's sad that other points of view have to be dismissed and not just accepted as an opposing point of view.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
Guitbox, FYI as far as my playing goes, I'm probably dead average around here, and maybe even less. Guys like Ricardo, Grisha, Juan... these guys can all play circles around me. So, no my video really doesn't carry any weight around here. It wasn't meant to be authoritative, but just a document of my own exploration and also something that could spawn discussion. I know I'm not the only one with this problem.
It's been my observation that flamenco players in general have less technical hang-ups than classical players. I feel that's precisely because they are given less dogmatic quasi-scientific strictures by their teachers. The teaching method is basically "here, learn this lick," keep playing it until it's easy, rinse and repeat.
There is also an obsession with rhythm, which ultimately helps them play things very fast and tight; another huge contrast with classical players whose rhythm tends to be, shall we say, personally oriented.
It's always struck me as unusual that flamenco teachers are traditionally barbers and classical guitar is taught in universities by PhDs.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Guitbox, FYI as far as my playing goes, I'm probably dead average around here, and maybe even less. Guys like Ricardo, Grisha, Juan... these guys can all play circles around me. So, no my video really doesn't carry any weight around here. It wasn't meant to be authoritative, but just a document of my own exploration and also something that could spawn discussion. I know I'm not the only one with this problem.
It's been my observation that flamenco players in general have less technical hang-ups than classical players. I feel that's precisely because they are given less dogmatic quasi-scientific strictures by their teachers. The teaching method is basically "here, learn this lick," keep playing it until it's easy, rinse and repeat.
There is also an obsession with rhythm, which ultimately helps them play things very fast and tight; another huge contrast with classical players whose rhythm tends to be, shall we say, personally oriented.
It's always struck me as unusual that flamenco teachers are traditionally barbers and classical guitar is taught in universities by PhDs.
Yes, I agree with you, I'm also working on improving my playing as well and this is part of my process. My point about that is this:
1. I didn't see anyone address your original post and video with nearly the negativity they did towards my posts and basically we are saying the same thing. I think your video is spot on. Maybe they talked about it and I missed it. When I post videos pointing out some of the same things people go to great lengths to discredit it without offering any counter evidence of their own. Like posting their own video that shows how I am wrong. That's all okay, I'm used to it on the other forum.
2. I have great respect for the playing ability of Ricardo, Grisha, etc. and anyone else here who plays at that high of a level, and I've already said that. However, I've experienced many phenomenal players who know how to play, but they really haven't a clue exactly what their fingers are doing. It works for them, so they assume what they are doing is just exactly what they were taught. They are wrong and the videos show they are wrong. I have yet to see one of these phenomenal players take the time to make a closeup video of their hand from a side view so we could slow it down and they could analyze it with us and point out why seeing is not believing. Seeing is believing...it always has been and always will be.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
quote:
I get it, these forums can be very alpha-male and you have to make my comments seem pointless
I can't decide if you're a troll or not. I'm gonna go with yes. Life's too short.
If you're not, you realize in your last post you said 1) you get this kind of reaction on other forums and 2) a person saying basically the same thing as you here didn't elicit the same reaction. There's a simple conclusion to this, but it's not mine to make. Anyways, moving on.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
They are wrong and the videos show they are wrong.
Or maybe you are wrong? I'm serious, I think it could help you a lot to rethink about technique and practice. See what works for your body. Try to observe your own hand and technique not other peoples.
Piwin made a good comment in the other thread.
"And I would add that that "intention" is just focus on the quality of sound. Sure it's an interesting discussion to see what is actually happening when someone plays, but if the purpose is to learn how to do it yourself, then the focus should be sound, not what the joints are doing. I mean, if it sounds right, you're not gonna change techniques because someone tells you that it looks like you're using this or that joint too much. So then you experiment. Oh I got the right sound by focusing on the middle joint, then great, focus on that. What your fingers are actually doing is almost irrelevant. Hell, if focusing on your left butt cheek helps you get the right sound, then focus on that."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)
quote:
I have great respect for the playing ability of Ricardo, Grisha, etc. and anyone else here who plays at that high of a level, and I've already said that. However, I've experienced many phenomenal players who know how to play, but they really haven't a clue exactly what their fingers are doing.
It seems to me a bit arrogant and condescending to assume the "phenomenal players" of whom you speak "haven't a clue exactly what their fingers are doing." But let's assume you are correct. So what? If they are phenomenal players and whatever their fingers are doing works for them, why are you flogging the idea that they should know just what their fingers are doing? Just because you want to spend your time overthinking your finger work, why do you assume anyone else should attach equal importance to it?
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
I get it, these forums can be very alpha-male and you have to make my comments seem pointless
If you're not, you realize in your last post you said 1) you get this kind of reaction on other forums and 2) a person saying basically the same thing as you here didn't elicit the same reaction. There's a simple conclusion to this, but it's not mine to make. Anyways, moving on.
Okay, I'll say it. IMO one has to be very careful not to be abrasive whenever "correcting" someone or pointing out advice. I have lost friends over picado! (only sort of joking)
Quick story: I once viewed a guy's video on a classical guitar forum. We'd been on good terms for years. I complimented his video and only pointed out that I disagreed with one aspect of his interpretation. I meant no offense and felt it was a legitimate and hopefully helpful form of feedback, one player to another. He quickly responded that he stood by his artistic decision.
After that time, he began attacking me whenever he saw me, in different and totally unrelated topics. From respectful colleague to enemy, just like that! Trust me, I've earned enemies in the past and I've deserved it. That one, not so much.
Gitbox, personally I welcome your contributions and consider them quite interesting, but your bedside manner is frankly awful. If you really want to make an impact, IMO you need to soften your statements and go slow. You are fighting against being the F.N.G., typical guitar conservatism, a kind of circle-the-wagons behavior that often happens on internet forums, and essentially you are telling everyone they've been wrong about how they're playing guitar.
Whether you are correct or not, you just have to be sensitive about how you deliver that information. Slinging around statements about "alpha males" and such isn't going to serve your purposes of learning new information and making a difference in the world of pedagogy.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
ORIGINAL: athrane77
Piwin made a good comment in the other thread.
"And I would add that that "intention" is just focus on the quality of sound. Sure it's an interesting discussion to see what is actually happening when someone plays, but if the purpose is to learn how to do it yourself, then the focus should be sound, not what the joints are doing. I mean, if it sounds right, you're not gonna change techniques because someone tells you that it looks like you're using this or that joint too much."
Actually, Paco Peña wanted me to play pulgar in a way that produced a way better sound but that better sound was killing my hand so i favored a more relaxed way of playing and a less perfect sound over that potentially hand destroying technique producing a better sound. And the few times in my life i really took things serious in the sense of studying my actions in every detail turned out to be the best spend hours in my life. Not only did it make me play the guitar a 1000 times better technique wise but it produced a way better sound as well since the 2 are pretty close related. For me the best sound is produced when i play totally relaxed and that is something that has to be acquired with severe study and awareness of your actions. It took me 3 years to discover my arpeggio and tremolo lacked fluentness because i kept to much tension on the thump. So giving these things a serious thought can pay off.
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Miguel, how are you so level-headed and still a flamenco guitar player? anyways, thanks for being constructive. I'm on a short fuse this week so I'm going to sit the rest of this one out. Maybe I'll grab a beer and go post something about colorful dildos in that other thread.
@Erik van Goch. That's a fair point.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
All this brings to mind for me Robert Schumann- He ruined his hands by over analyzing how he played the piano and adopting weird regimes of practice based on his freaky deaky ideas.
I'd listen to the professional players on how to play compas in beautiful inventive ways and if you have picado you have it. If not you have compas.
The great ball player Sandy Koufax killed his arm by over performing, most of you guys are not going to be pros on that level, just go easy.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Speaking as ham handed guitar maker you guys crack me up. Middle finger joint? I give it my whole middle finger.
It is well known that if you massage daily the middle joint of your big toe with a mixture of avocado, pimiento picante and first pressing olive oil, your picado will improve dramatically.
It will do nothing for your ability to accompany, but this is obviously of little importance
I don't think we need to take it to that level, but I do think I want to make a video about this because it keeps reappearing as an issue. I personally don't have a problem with guitbox and his observations nor his approach about stating people might not know what is going on here....and i say that disagreeing with one important aspect of what he is presenting. I think it is totally fine to nerd out on technique to some extent. This sort of relates to that mind blowing vid Troy Grady made about inside outside picking. He said the term 'outside picking" is used by teachers as a way to deal with string crossings. Paul Gilbert says this, I as a student applied it and it works like Magic. Now Troy Grady comes along with a new different perspective and says what Gilbert says to do is a non issue....but why does it work for us then??? The reason he demos is the pick slant thing, a totally different technique idea. He proves to be absolutely right.
I feel what Guitbox is getting at is a similar situation where he feels what teachers say to focus on is NOT the real thing and it is more complex or "different" technique wise. And it could be that just saying "drive from big knuckle" works as a thing to say, not unlike telling students to use "outside picking" works. So it's all fine, but I simply disagree with certain details (mainly this PIP middle joint issue) and think at this point it might still be worth keeping a discussion about, so long as minds remain open.
RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)
Not to barge into this discussion, but what's with all the dissection (maybe pun intended haha) of the physiology behind picado? It's been demonstrated that many players have different approaches to picado owing to their particular hand physiology, so is it not sufficient to emphasize economy of motion and clear articulation when teaching the technique? All this stuff about specific joints seems like it's just an academic argument that doesn't necessarily have practical weight.
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olé BarkellWH 
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