RE: The middle joint in picado

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athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Beside the mechanics I would like to point out that's it very important how you practice picado. Of course you need an idea about the mechanics and posture and it's good to rethink your technique and look what other players do, but to get a good picado it's important to know how to practice it. ToddK's video about practicing with a metronome is great, atrafana on youtube has some great exercises too (speed bursts for example a very helpful). So talking about HOW to practice would be a lot more useful for many people.
Here's a quote from atrafana and he's spot on.
"Speed is not a natural outcome of hours you put into your practice. If that were the case, all the classical players who do 5-6 hours of practice per day would be playing scales at lightning speed. But we all know that's not the case. The player has to aim for speed via a different mind set and practice routine."

and of course:
"One last thing, it is not possible to play picado by only moving the tips of your fingers. That is a misconception driven by the belief that Paco de Lucia does it that way. The main force of picado always comes from the knuckle, that is the main joint. The reason Paco seems to be moving only the first two joints is because he does the movements very economically."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 20:38:17

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

guitbox, can you still keep track of this "firing order" at higher speeds? Have you tried?

Grisha, no I can't play all that fast. I have had a hand injury (focal dystonia) for over 20 years and I'm in my 50s, so while I've been able to get back to playing in the last year or so, I'm not playing fast scales and probably never will be playing them like you or Ricardo, that ship has sailed. I do feel like I can sense the middle joint contributing at the moment the main knuckle joint causes the fingertip to impact the string. I get your point about sensations and will keep that in mind. (I can do bursts with my left hand quite fast and it's that firing order that I notice, but you're right that it just becomes intuition at higher speeds)

I'm still very curious about your comment about the sensation of pulling or releasing the string towards the resting string. To me, that means the middle or tip are doing a contraction as you release the string. Could you elaborate on that concept and maybe address it in a video? If you're still able to do a high frame rate video at some point I'd like to check that out in slow motion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 20:54:02

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

and of course:
"One last thing, it is not possible to play picado by only moving the tips of your fingers. That is a misconception driven by the belief that Paco de Lucia does it that way. The main force of picado always comes from the knuckle, that is the main joint. The reason Paco seems to be moving only the first two joints is because he does the movements very economically."

I agree with that. I'm not that familiar with all the flamenco pedagogy, but there's only that one guy that I've found, Diaz, who seems to think Paco uses just the middle joint. He has only half the equation, just like the main knuckle only people only have half the equation. I haven't heard anyone arguing that his idea is valid on this thread. The "main" joint may be the power or the force or the momentum, but the other joints have a specific role as well. -- perhaps the precision or ?. To fire a gun, for instance, you need both gun powder and a trigger to ignite it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 21:07:20

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

but there's only that one guy that I've found, Diaz, who seems to think Paco uses just the middle joint. He has only half the equation, just like the main knuckle only people only have half the equation. I haven't heard anyone arguing that his idea is valid on this thread.

Dude... step away from the keyboard. Seriously

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 21:11:08

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

As far as the categorization problem, yes, it seems to be the case that people like to do that, reducing complexity to simple categories to avoid having to deal with ambiguity. Black and white, awesome flamenco player and girly classical player, Democrat and Republican, Capitalist and Communist, etc.

Yes, you just summed up in a nutshell every public forum I've ever participated in.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 21:11:45

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

I made a video of how I see it and how I'm practicing right now. Absolutely fascinating, must-see-TV for sure!

https://youtu.be/THG7qF6GtLI

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 21:18:48

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

No one has truly addressed my point of view that there is a firing order to the joints and

That's not because you have irrefutable arguments - far from it - it is because it is something you've hypothesized or postulated without any rigorous evidence. The burden is on you to present more than low-res and low-time-rate videos of movement with wild extrapolations about muscle firing without presenting any muscle activity data. Also it would be nice if you stop butchering physics with your incongruous claims like the one on the other forum that the big knuckle (MCP) joint can only push down so you need other joints to release the string horizontally - apparently you've never heard of fulcrums and force components in both directions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 21:31:02

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)

You sure trust your eyesight a lot more than I do.
The thing is, if we really want to know what's going on, mere visual observation won't get us anywhere for the simple fact that there are no muscles in the fingers (everything is in the palm or forearm). Everything that is happening in your fingers is just the result of an action higher up in the hand or forearm.
In other words, anything you're seeing is just the result of a root cause that is not in the fingers. And to determine what that root cause is, you'd need medical imagery, not eyesight. Even if you were able to determine that this or that joint did move or not, you wouldn't be any closer to understanding what is actually happening unless you have the anatomical and medical knowledge to interpret that observation. Seeing is definitely not believing, at least not for anyone who tries to uphold any reasonable standard of proof.
My wildly uneducated guess is that people who have problems because they were taught to play "from the big knuckle" have those problems because they are using unnecessary muscle tension to keep the fingers rigid. And that problem can be solved by focusing on being relaxed. And if they're looking for that muscular tension in the fingers, they're simply looking at the wrong spot. They should be looking at the palm and forearm.

edit: my bad, there is one kind of muscle in the fingers: arrector pili, the one that, when it contracts, causes goosebumps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2017 21:54:38

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

Piwin got to it before i could here, but he's right on.

You're looking in the basement, when the answers are on the roof.

You're in a car race, and when you start the race, your tires are spinning
way too much, and instead of easing up on the gas pedal, you're looking
to see what's wrong with the tires.

This is all about how your brain communicates with your fingers.
Not how your fingers are moving. The answer is in the brain, not in the hand.

You must practice certain things while thinking about certain things, a certain way.
Watching other peoples fingers will do absolutely nothing to help you get any further.

Massive frustration over a long period of time often leads people into desperation, and its in desperation that you start to do stupid things, like thinking "If i move my fingers like Paco, i'll somehow be able to play faster".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2017 0:57:24

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

Dude... step away from the keyboard. Seriously

With this rext, the traindriver on your avatar suddenly does not look as a frendly ol' shap.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2017 8:23:41

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

The answer is in the brain, not in the hand.

Go neuroscience!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2017 12:22:56

guitbox

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 24 2017

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

I made a video of how I see it and how I'm practicing right now. Absolutely fascinating, must-see-TV for sure!

https://youtu.be/THG7qF6GtLI

Nice video and explanation, I agree with what you are saying and it's what seems to work best for me too. I'm still on the fence about when and how much tip joint extension and flexion there should be, but it's probably more of a variability than it is always do it, or always avoid it. So I'm just working on practicing both ways to get some finer control in my tips. I like the sound of firm tips if I want a really articulate sound. But I see it as basically the same as you describe here, the main knuckle pushes down, and the other two joints end up releasing the string--because they are the only joints that can direct the force towards the resting string.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2017 19:56:43

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to guitbox)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitbox
..the main knuckle pushes down, and the other two joints end up releasing the string-- because they are the only joints that can direct the force towards the resting string.

Wow, you are a troll, aren't you? AGAIN, this above is simply false. Even if a finger is completely rigid (which it isn't) and only moving from the big knuckle (MCP) joint as if swinging from a fulcrum, there are force components in both the vertical (into the soundboard) and horizontal (across the resting strings parallel to the soundboard) direction - the shares of which depend on the relative position of the 'fulcrum' above and in relation to the string being pushed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2017 16:02:32

Lawler

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2017 16:58:32

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2017 16:56:55

Lawler

Posts: 3
Joined: Apr. 30 2017

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)

Good thread. A lot of sense in this forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2017 17:00:33

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I posted earlier in the thread but just lurked for the last few pages....

I just posted some of Gerardo Nuñez's comments about picado from Encuentro DVD (in translation, from the accompanying book) on another thread which I thought would be relevant here;

"What's the best way to position your hands? After all the years I''ve been playing guitar, I still wouldn't venture to tell you how you should hold your hands. Just start! .... You just have to find the way that makes the most sense for you. If, for example, you have to move your forearm when changing from an arpegio to a picado, this movement will make a harmonious dialogue between you and your guitar difficult. ..... You can experiment to find a more natural position."

[NB I left a couple of bits out where he refers to specifics he is demonstrating on screen]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 16:59:21

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

I posted earlier in the thread but just lurked for the last few pages....

I just posted some of Gerardo Nuñez's comments about picado from Encuentro DVD (in translation, from the accompanying book) on another thread which I thought would be relevant here;

"...If, for example, you have to move your forearm when changing from an arpegio to a picado, this movement will make a harmonious dialogue between you and your guitar difficult. .....

Why do you think is he saying this - is it the weight of the forearm/inertia argument? Because it seems that we move the whole left arm regularly in multi-position speedy scales, without inertia impeding the smooth execution.

I am just trying to understand what the implied underlying reason is since he is not explicit about it in the quote.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 17:49:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

I posted earlier in the thread but just lurked for the last few pages....

I just posted some of Gerardo Nuñez's comments about picado from Encuentro DVD (in translation, from the accompanying book) on another thread which I thought would be relevant here;

"...If, for example, you have to move your forearm when changing from an arpegio to a picado, this movement will make a harmonious dialogue between you and your guitar difficult. .....

Why do you think is he saying this - is it the weight of the forearm/inertia argument? Because it seems that we move the whole left arm regularly in multi-position speedy scales, without inertia impeding the smooth execution.

I am just trying to understand what the implied underlying reason is since he is not explicit about it in the quote.

Makes it clear on screen...making a smooth transition between arps and rest strokes such that the music flows continuous...he admit's it's difficult if you have to change your position drastically. He proceeds to show picado with both bent middle joint and straight finger admitting straight finger seems more "natural" and the bent finger method is more complicated though effective. He was the only player I had ever seen at the time that could play comfortably BOTH ways, and in class in Sanlucar he normally played with bent middle joint so seeing that in Encuentro was very surprising to me.

Furthermore, I found it ironic that during the buleria picado demo he reverts to bent fingers at some point in the run, suggesting that it is actually more "natural" for him to use the bent finger posture after all.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 2:59:37

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

is it the weight of the forearm/inertia argument?

I have no idea what "weight of the forearm/inertia argument" is.

the most significant parts for me are: "You just have to find the way that makes the most sense for you." and "You can experiment to find a more natural position." I quoted 'cos these are kind of principles that don't need the concrete examples of what he demonstrates on screen.

Actually the most significant part is the second one: "You can experiment to find a more natural position."

There was some discussion earlier about whether or not to analyse, and the value (or not) of anatomical knowledge. A lot of the stuff about "mechanics", "exchange", "release" etc. I don't really understand what all that is about. I suspect it is either looking in the wrong place/s or making it more complicated than it needs to be, or both. First it makes sense to me that "if it ain't broke don't fix it", so if you are only going to go down this path of anatomy and analysis if you have a problem. Second the point for me about anatomy and analyzing such problems is not to figure out the right thing to do, but to avoid the wrong things. So when Gerardo says "find a more natural position" I interpret that to mean put the hand and fingers to the strings in a way consistent with the physical structure, and move the fingers in a way that the physical structure, the anatomy, is suited to. And experiment with that too.

I also got the idea from someone who had been on Manolo Sanlucar's courses, to make the movements as natural as possible. Like grasping an orange (or squeezing a tennis ball). You wouldn't do either of those with straight fingers, you would naturally bend the fingers.

So for me experimentation good, natural "position" (or "relationship") and natural movements good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 14:03:08

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

is it the weight of the forearm/inertia argument?

I have no idea what "weight of the forearm/inertia argument" is.

Meaning it is generally harder to move as quickly and smoothly a larger mass (the entire arm) than it is to move a smaller mass (just the hand).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 15:55:38

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

So when Gerardo says "find a more natural position" I interpret that to mean put the hand and fingers to the strings in a way consistent with the physical structure, and move the fingers in a way that the physical structure, the anatomy, is suited to.

Very few people would disagree with this. The question is how to execute this seemingly simple principle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2017 16:53:14

Leñador

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Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

That's a bit like, "walk naturally and think about what walking naturally should look like while you do it." Fifty bucks says you're going to end up walking like a injured bird.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2017 21:33:44

Piwin

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Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Leñador)

I just had this flash vision of John Cleese in that sketch on the Ministry of Silly Walks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2017 22:23:11

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

That's a bit like, "walk naturally and think about what walking naturally should look like while you do it."

what is? the thing Gerardo said that i quoted? something else i said? or something someone else said? (i wanna put one of those faces here but the right one just isnt' there.... just imagine a genuinely confused face....)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2017 15:10:55

Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

Sorry, it was this quote from Miguel's post that I noticed. Just noting the difficulty of such a simple sounding concept.

quote:

So when Gerardo says "find a more natural position" I interpret that to mean put the hand and fingers to the strings in a way consistent with the physical structure, and move the fingers in a way that the physical structure, the anatomy, is suited to.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2017 1:49:02

estebanana

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RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77)

I just want to register this as official view #6086 in a thread about the mechanics the middle finger joint

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2017 3:45:14

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

So when Gerardo says "find a more natural position" I interpret that to mean put the hand and fingers to the strings in a way consistent with the physical structure, and move the fingers in a way that the physical structure, the anatomy, is suited to.

quote:

That's a bit like, "walk naturally and think about what walking naturally should look like while you do it." Fifty bucks says you're going to end up walking like a injured bird.

I don't think it's like that at all, because, as I understand it, we are born with an instinct to walk, and little kids walk (and move around generally) in a really natural way (in the absence of injury or disease). So what happens to that? We interfere with it. So my interpretation of find a more natural position is to work with the physical structure, and not interfere with the natural way the fingers move (eg. by holding the fingers straight, or the and stiff).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2017 14:09:49

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Makes it clear on screen...making a smooth transition between arps and rest strokes such that the music flows continuous...he admit's it's difficult if you have to change your position drastically. He proceeds to show picado with both bent middle joint and straight finger admitting straight finger seems more "natural" and the bent finger method is more complicated though effective. He was the only player I had ever seen at the time that could play comfortably BOTH ways, and in class in Sanlucar he normally played with bent middle joint so seeing that in Encuentro was very surprising to me.

Furthermore, I found it ironic that during the buleria picado demo he reverts to bent fingers at some point in the run, suggesting that it is actually more "natural" for him to use the bent finger posture after all.

I watched the vid again to check my previous understanding of that clip.
I actually thought that what you are calling "bent middle joint" was a demonstration of "flattening" the hand towards the top of the guitar, ie. straightening the MCP joint, with an almost 90 degree bend (flexion) at the PIP joint.
And I thought what you are calling "straight finger" was still bent (flexed) middle joint (PIP) but less extremely so, combined with flexion at the MCP (aka big knuckle).
So all in all I thought that looked a lot more of a "natural" curve of the joints.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2017 14:19:53

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Makes it clear on screen...making a smooth transition between arps and rest strokes such that the music flows continuous...he admit's it's difficult if you have to change your position drastically. He proceeds to show picado with both bent middle joint and straight finger admitting straight finger seems more "natural" and the bent finger method is more complicated though effective. He was the only player I had ever seen at the time that could play comfortably BOTH ways, and in class in Sanlucar he normally played with bent middle joint so seeing that in Encuentro was very surprising to me.

Furthermore, I found it ironic that during the buleria picado demo he reverts to bent fingers at some point in the run, suggesting that it is actually more "natural" for him to use the bent finger posture after all.

I watched the vid again to check my previous understanding of that clip.
I actually thought that what you are calling "bent middle joint" was a demonstration of "flattening" the hand towards the top of the guitar, ie. straightening the MCP joint, with an almost 90 degree bend (flexion) at the PIP joint.
And I thought what you are calling "straight finger" was still bent (flexed) middle joint (PIP) but less extremely so, combined with flexion at the MCP (aka big knuckle).
So all in all I thought that looked a lot more of a "natural" curve of the joints.

Very perceptive.

All I am saying is that for HIM having worked on the PDL position for so many years, I noticed he reverted back to "it" after attempting to demonstrate the more "natural" position....and that is Ironic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2017 2:06:38