Peg taper and bushings

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f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

Peg taper and bushings

Hi All

My first guitar is progressing. The top is joined and I am preparing the neck. However it is going to be a peghead guitar and I wonder about the pegs, what taper should they be?

I am a vioin maker, I know how to fit pegs. However there are some considerations that are different for guitar pegs vs violin pegs.

What is the best taper to use? Violins use 1:30, but the pegs on my teachers 1967 Ramirez blanca have pegs that are 1:17. Also I have seen in Dictum's catalogue a guitar peg reamer at taper 1:15. I just can not understand why such a steep taper. Tradition obviously, but things become traditional for a reason. One reason could be that they did not have accurate peg reamers and it was easier to fit steep pegs then. The other reason could be that is simply works better. Old violins also often had very steep pegs btw.

The other consideration is the headstock. On my teachers Ramirez the problem is that the peg holes have become worn, and the head-veneer less so. Thus the pegs grip only at the head-veneer. This must be a common problem on old guitars. Is there a solution to this?

Wooden inserts under the head-veneer is one option. If the head-veneer is rosewood should the insert not also be rosewood? Maple has been mentioned as a possible material for the inserts, but maple is also less wear resistant than rosewood, so it would diminish the problem, but not solve it. Also I always thought that pegs should be harder than the wood they sit in. So a rosewood peg fitted into a rosewood insert might not work optimally.

Another solution would be to bush the peghole with cedrela or mahogany all the way through. This would show on the surface of the head as a light ring around the peg, but it could be retuched to match the rosewood.

Cheers, any thoughts appreciated

Frank JW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2016 10:49:33

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: f.j.w.

Another solution would be to bush the peghole with cedrela or mahogany all the way through. This would show on the surface of the head as a light ring around the peg, but it could be retuched to match the rosewood.

Frank JW

Drill from the back of the head with the drill press set to stop at the rosewood overlay then plug the hole, re-drill a pilot hole from the overlay side and taper as usual.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2016 14:18:30

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

The ware in the hole is not even either so if you add bushes then perhaps use end grain to help with even hole ware.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2016 16:26:06

f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

Hi All

Sorry, perhaps I ramble too much when I get going. My question is not about repairing old peg holes. It is about fitting new pegs in a new instrument for the first time, and the precautions that luthiers can take to avoid future problems.

Frank JW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2016 19:10:32

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: f.j.w.
It is about fitting new pegs in a new instrument for the first time, and the precautions that luthiers can take to avoid future problems.

It never occurred to me to be concerned about taper. Just buy some flamenco pegs, drill and taper the hole and install them. They'll last for eons if they're installed correctly. If you're worried about longevity and wear buy some of those ugly "pegheads". I have a couple of customers who are insisting on pegheads instead of traditional so I'll be installing them in spite of my aversion. One gratefully does what one must since the customer is always right.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2016 21:43:41

f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

Modern violin peg taper is 1:30. Old time violin taper is 1:20. Pegs with different tapers does indeed work differently. 1:30 works better in my opinion, but is harder to fit well. Most violin makers agree on this. The disadvantage of 1:20 pegs is that there is a greater tendency to pop out. When tuning with 1:20 pegs it is always necessary to apply a little inwards pressure when turning the peg, or it may pop out of the hole. This is much less the case with 1:30 pegs.

My teacher's 1967 Ramirez with 1:17 pegs does indeed have the pop out problem quite noticeably. The reason for this is that the cedrela wood has become compressed more than the rosewood of the headveneer, and certainly the 1:17 taper doesen't help in this regard.

I was thinking however that the 1:17 or 1:15 taper which seem to be traditional on flamenco guitars may be due to the fact that cedrela is a very soft wood and that pegs will tend to push trough more on guitars than violins where the head is made from maple.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2016 8:25:54

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

I wasn't talking about repair either. You can add the bushes or sleeves on a new build too , to help prevent future wear. I have seen it done and actually looks like a nice feature. I can't say I have experimented with the taper itself so can't comment on that.

Good working pegs feel natural and effortless so I guess the fit is more important than the actual measurements.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2016 8:41:41

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Peg taper and bushings (in reply to f.j.w.)

I appreciate your sharing this information. I have rarely used wooden pegs and when I have I have used a 1:30 taper--because that is the taper of the only reamers I could find.

I was aware that the wooden pegs on the 1969 Ramirez blanca that I have were different. Once I brought it to a violin maker in the USA to see if he could improve the fit of the pegs and he was unable to find a reamer of the same taper as those pegs.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2016 16:33:05