New addition to the family

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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

New addition to the family

I am pleased to announce a new addition to my (guitar) family. This a very nice 1956 vintage Sobrinos de Esteso. I have just had this guitar fully restored to playable condition again.

I actually picked up this guitar last year in Marbella but it was in fairly unplayable condition at the time. The restoration job was done by Stephen Hill, La Heradura (Granada). The top had been relaquered at some time to a nasty orange glaze that had cracked. The top also had a couple of cracks that needed repairing.
The old glaze was removed and the new glaze was colour matched to the original finish.
The fret board wasnt too bad so it was just cleaned. The biggest and most expensive change was to remove the original pegs that didnt work very well and change them for machines that look like pegs. This system works very well and now you can tune the guitar up and have it stay in tune. Its a 21st century addition that really enhances the usefulness of the instrument without taking anything from its aesthetics. Finally a new golpe plate and strings.

I am very happy with the result. It plays well for an old lady but the larger scale length means you need a cejilla on first or second fret. This guitar comes from a time when Sobrinos de Esteso were becoming Conde Hermanos. Its one of the first times we see Conde Hermanos on the label

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2016 10:26:10

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Nice piece of history there. Glad you rescued her.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2016 12:31:24

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Great to restore a guitar that may just be left to dry and crack ...and it's a piece of history , the star of a few juergas ....what of its history do you know ..?

I'm gonna start a chant for the crowd to join in
Video ...
Video ...
Video ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2016 8:06:49

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Nice! Nino Ricardo played a few from this period so maybe he tried this one when passing by the shop!

Luthier Alberto Pantoja offered me one from this period about 20 years ago but he wanted a lot of money. He apologised and said he had thought I was an American!

This label and signature was used from the 1940s when the brothers started up again with Esteso's widow after the Civil War. Here is a picture of a 1945 label.

I have one from the mid 60s before Faustino developed the bracing pattern that formed the basis of modern Conde guitars. Mine is built like the 51 Barbero in the plan by Richard Brune. I would be interested to hear what yours is like if you have a mirror.

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2016 9:48:41

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

what of its history do you know ..?

Well during the restoration we found that one of the side panels was not original and that the top did not have its original glaze so Im pretty sure it got dropped or damaged at some point. The original panel was replaced and the top was reglazed with an orange finish. From the colour we guess this was done around 1970-1972. The guitar was sold from the Gravina shop to a friend of mine Andrew Linn, who was and is a English aficionado living in Spain. He lived in Cadiz at the time and it was used in many fiestas

He said he bought it in Madrid in the early 70s so the dates tie up with the damage and repair.

quote:

I would be interested to hear what yours is like if you have a mirror.

I tried ( and failed) to take a photo of the inside using the phone camera. I saw Ricardo put a strong halogen light into a guitar to take a photo of the bracing. It appears to be a 5 strut brace under the top. I have a luthier friend who might be able to help me get a better picture today.

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Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2016 9:04:16

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

More interesting would be to know the soundboard thickness and the scale length. Maybe your luthier friend could oblige.

But please tell us how it feels. Is it stiff or loose in the right hand?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2016 9:47:02

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

the original pegs that didnt work very well and change them for machines that look like pegs

Pity. Should reduce the value considerably. Real pegs, well fitted, would have been the correct option.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2016 16:11:40

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Wow! What an amazing piece of history to have in a collection! Congrats!

quote:

Pity. Should reduce the value considerably. Real pegs, well fitted, would have been the correct option.

Those can be put back in easily what's the big deal?....

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2016 16:48:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14802
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Nice. My student has one just like it from 1960. Best sounding guitar I ever played. Even thought the 73 has a different look and bracing, there is something about the voice of the guitar that is the same. For me these are the perfect flamenco guitar design from history. Lucky they are relatively cheap and abundant compared to other vintage guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2016 17:02:11

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Morante)

The top is pretty thin. It had been made thinner from the original when they put on the 70s glaze. I'll try and get the spec but its a holiday in Spain until tuesday

quote:

Pity. Should reduce the value considerably. Real pegs, well fitted, would have been the correct option.

Firstly the old pegs could not be restored although I still have them. The holes in the headstock were not even straight. The new pegs do not significantly reduce the value of the guitar. I checked this out before replacing them. I consider this modification an improvement to the instrument. The guitar is now playable and that for me makes it more valuable. There is no real change to the look or function except that they actually work properly!

Leñador - This is a permanent change. The new pegs cant be easily removed and the old ones put back.

Ricardo- Thanks. I knew you would find this one interesting

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Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2016 20:53:13

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Looks like a normal fingerboard to me, 12 frets at the starting of the guitar body?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2016 1:37:10

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Ricardo)

For years I liked my '67 Ramirez 1a blanca better than any of the other flamencas I had played.

A friend's daughter was at school in Madrid. She got a well known Spanish classical player (whose name I forget) to go with her to pick out a guitar for her father. They chose a '73 Conde Hermanos blanca from Gravina 7--not orange, for some reason. When it arrived in Austin the guitar was dead as a doornail. It sounded like an unseasoned solid plank of southern yellow pine. I felt sorry for my friend, but said nothing about it.

Two or three years later the guitar had "played in". It was really great. I liked it better than my Ramirez.

Nowadays I like my Arcangel Fernandez the best, except for maybe a 1950s Barbero that belongs to Richard Brune. I got out the Ramirez day before yesterday. It's a great guitar, but I still remember that '73 Conde...

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2016 16:16:49

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

My '64 Conde has 7 short bars (the 1st and the 7th stopping just after the bridge line) and is very good.
It sounds like a good old Conde and not as bold as the more recent Condes.
I have also a 74 Josè Bellido (5 bars plus 2 closing ones) a '98 Sanchis Carpio (5 bars) an'82 Gerundino (7 bars + 2 closing ones) and a 2002 Manzanero (5 bars + 2 closing ones).
At the moment the Manzanero is my favourite one. Manzanero imho is highly underrated, as he should be considered among the best makers of the last 60 years.
I tried an Arcangel just once in life many years ago. Usual Arcangel bracing: 5 struts, a big contrapuente and two long closing bars (same plantilla than a '34 Santos).
A year ago I tried a Manuel Caceres that was a faithful copy of an Arcangel's (Caceres made guitars under Arcangel's name for the last 11 years). I played it long and found it very good but at the end I took the Manzanero which had a lot in common with the Arcangel as feeling at your right hand and the transient of the note but a thicker sound, more Barbero or Conde like.
Anyway, inspite the bracing of some guitars are very similar they play very different.

The main difference between Arcangel and Barbero is the top thickness, for what I know.
Arcangel modified the old Barberos patterns (using a lighter top than the last Barbero). A thick, flat top can give a thick, bold note, even though with less dynamical range. Not very big differences anyway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2016 23:24:05

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Echi)

When Richard Brune appraised my '82 Arcangel before I bought it, he commented on the thin top. He also said he played the guitar for a couple of hours, because he liked it.

Among Brune's collection I liked the 1950s Barbero the best. I think he likes it more than the Arcangel. The Barbero has a warmer tone. For me the Arcangel really barks on rasgueados. But Ricardo Marlow said he liked a Conde that belongs to Brune better than either Brune's Barbero or my Arcangel.

Different strokes for different folks.

I met Manzanero in 1991 when I was in Madrid shopping for a classical. I really enjoyed getting to know him a little. I ended up buying a Contreras doble tapa from Manuel Sr. At the time I had played far more flamenco than classical. I think if I had played more classical by then, I might have bought the Manzanero I tried out.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2016 15:38:07

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Echi)

quote:

My '64 Conde has 7 short bars (the 1st and the 7th stopping just after the bridge line) and is very good. It sounds like a good old Conde and not as bold as the more recent Condes

A lot (most? all?) of the 1960s guitars were constructed like these examples from 1965 and 1967.

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2016 22:14:10

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to Pimientito)

Hi,
Not all the guitars were made with that bracing. It's quite famous the other bracing with 7 struts as well.
In Tom's tutorial he shows a couple of different plans.

Btw the pattern above is a slight variation of the typical Barbero bracing pattern (used in the same years but with different results also by Ramirez and still used by Manzanero in these days for instance). The 2 closing bars are long and steeped: if you change the direction of those 2 bars you have the other pattern with seven struts.

Here is a picture of the bracing used in '45. The bracing on my guitar is lighter and without the closing bars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2016 7:09:30

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

A lot (most? all?) of the 1960s guitars were constructed like these examples from 1965 and 1967.

Rob

I had a look with a mirror inside and my bracing is very similar. 5 vertical struts and then two extra little ones in the lower fat end.

quote:

Looks like a normal fingerboard to me, 12 frets at the starting of the guitar body?

Yes its normal in that sense but the scale length is 670mm. Thats nearly 2 cm more than I am used to playing so it feels a bit weird. If i use cejuilla on first fret then it plays really well.

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2016 10:29:02

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

A lot (most? all?) of the 1960s guitars were constructed like these examples from 1965 and 1967.

Rob

I have seen the same bracing in Condes dated 1971, 1976, 1970

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2016 15:01:32

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

1976

1976 - one year later than Paco's iconic guitar which I had thought had something like the modern pattern. Was the 76 a primera?

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2016 15:56:53

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: New addition to the family (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

1976 - one year later than Paco's iconic guitar which I had thought had something like the modern pattern. Was the 76 a primera?

I may well have remembered wrong and I can't find the drawing I made.

Here's a 1974 previously posted in the foro, bracing is moving towards a pattern found in some modern Condes.