Picado and coordination

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Picado and coordination

I was meditating on picado recently, and remembered some things I've read about coordination.

What is it, essentially, that is difficult about good picado?

1. the RH and arm must perform rapid, precise patterns of movement
2. the LH and arm must perform rapid, precise patterns of movement which are assymetrical with the RH
3. these patterns, or more specifically their effects, must be coordinated to an incredibly precise degree to a specific rhythmic pulse

If we agree with these, assumptions, we see that there is a lot to do. If you are looking at a run that is giving you trouble, you might ask where the problem occurs.

Is it a fault of the RH, LH, coordination, or rhythm? Keep in mind that we can do something well with one hand, but if we are forced to repeat it while doing something else with the other hand, we lose efficiency. We may lose a good 20-50% of our efficiency when we split our attention.

This is a good argument for hands-seperate practice. I have done a lot of RH only practice, but what about LH? It would seem just as important and worthy of study, if only to make it as sure-fingered as the RH. It may be true that if there is a weakness in either hand, that weakness will cause the body to seize up. That's when we stumble and the picado catches, or the hand tenses and misses a string. Caused by uncertainty.

What about coordination? Probably the best way is to use an impartial observer, Ye Olde Metronome. The precision must be complete, you must make sure your strokes and frets are as accurate to the extent your senses will let you. The only way to determine this would be paying complete attention. The other way would be when you mess up, that will tell you if you are doing it right!

It comes to mind there should be an automated picking machine, connected to a metronome. It could pick, say sixteenth notes at 120 bpm. Then your job would be to make the LH do its required actions for the scale to sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2006 21:42:39

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Nice observation Miguel.
But what about this : When I do a picado run with a descending scale, I can do that faster then a picado on just one open string. Seems my left hand helps to force my righthand to keep up the speed. ( may have sth. to do with the fact I am faster with a pick)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2006 21:56:08

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I guess descending scales are easier because it fits better to the movement of an apoyando stroke.

The movement of hiting a string is easier to do than the preparing, the "stretching".
Logically it makes no sense to me, but before I started with flamenco and picado, I found the descending scale harder to play.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2006 22:37:45

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Luckily, pretty much every run you'll hear, in a flamenco solo,
is descending. So i wouldnt fight it. :)

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 0:28:29

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

good post Miguel
grisha sugested an automated ami picado , that will work more on the coordonation of left
cause u can get much faster "ami" picado then "im".It's evident that u can train "ami " picado,
after all u can play recuerdos .classical tremolo is good cause it trains u to be able to play
fast ami tirando.Playing picado ami however means to be able to accentuate with ami ,with
whatever finger u want.I'm working on it ...after that left hand coord will not be a problem.

But still ...that's playing in position , but what about streches and shifting? That's the really hard part .The RH for us fingerstyle players is the easy part usually.

The advantage to have played electric is that electric players do a lot of shifting and slides.
They usually slide between a chord and another when they do riffs.This ...we dont do,and it
is necesarry(spell it for me pls)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 1:35:28

gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Luckily, pretty much every run you'll hear, in a flamenco solo,
is descending. So i wouldnt fight it. :)

Impetu has an ascending picado run. I also play a Manolo Sanlucar buleria falseta that starts with an ascending picado run. So I'm not sure I agree with that statement.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 2:00:59

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Impetu is not an easy piece, but the picado's, are the easiest
thing about that piece. Its on the fast side, yeah, but the runs
are only 8th notes. They shouldnt be a problem for anyone
with a halfway decent picado.

Sure, there's gonna be an ascending run here or there.
But for the most part, i stick by my statement.

Mostly you will find, especially in the trad stuff (sabicas/serranito)
the runs are 95% descending.
I have only one fast ascending run in my whole repetoire.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 9:40:13

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Todd's right. Sure, there are exceptions. But, hey, you remind me of something, Todd. In Virtuoissmo (sp?), Serranito's debut, there's a incredibly crushing, huge picado run that goes up and down, if memory serves me right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 13:42:30

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Yeah, you'll hear them, no doubt.

im just saying, for the most part, the super fast stuff is descending.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 15:01:42

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I'm not fighting it todd.

Still seems strange that when i-m are playing on an open string ( so there is no possible tension caused by the left hand) it still moves slower then when left hand is involved. Does anybody else have that "problem".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 15:15:42

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to koella)

oh yes. i can´t play fast at all on one single string, not with a pick either.
But if i play scales and stuff i can go much much much faster. Both hands seem to help each other. with fingers i can only go faster. not much much much

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 15:26:40

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I think duende is hitting on the key. That the hands help each other. I think that having a target to play toward helps coordination as opposed to simply repeating the same note. However, if you focus on the downbeat of sixteenth notes, say, on an open string you can ussually pick up the speed because you have that rhythmic target to help the right hand coordinate.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 15:37:09

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I think it is reasonable, because the open string is long and it hat also a high action (distance between top and string. But its not something you cant handle without practicing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 16:22:18

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I think a big part is something Grisha and Miguel
were talking about, and that is "grouping.

Group things into 3's 4's 6's. A 12 note line becomes 4 groups of 3's.
Practice the 3's until its virtually one movement.
Though the fingers still move seperately, your brain begins to see
the group as one entity, therefore easier to deal with at higher speeds.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 16:27:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14835
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Don't let the left hand "help" the right hand to coordinate or synchronize. That is why some guys can't go as fast on one string. Make sure the RIGHT hand (picking hand) is the boss, putting a rhythmic and speed leash on the left hand. Most guys can go faster with the left hand. You need to have both hands separate and controlled, your speed limit is how fast you can control the right hand.

I am faster with the left hand. If Grisha or Todd came up over my shoulder and did the right hand picado to a steady tempo, I could sychronize with him with my left hand, by not thinking about what he is doing, just being in rhythm. You have to sort of do that with yourself, and you will see why you need the right hand to really know what it is doing and be consistant to achieve speed and cleanliness.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 16:56:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14835
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Ricardo)

Here is a picking exercise that helps control string crossings. You have to alternate to achieve speed. You can do the same to train i-m strokes. Start with i, and alternate. Notice the note on the 1st string is always "m".

E----------0---------------0------0---------------
B-0-1-3------3-1-0-1-3-----3-------3-1-0------
G---------------------------------------------------
D----------------------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------------------

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 17:04:54

MarkMc

Posts: 121
Joined: Oct. 1 2005
From: Wilsonville, Oregon

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi Ricardo,

This is great stuff! When practicing picado, I do notice the synchronization issues between the LH & RH. What you said makes sense, thanks.

And thanks for the exercise as well.

Mark

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 17:13:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14835
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Ricardo)

One more thing to help the left hand with rhythm. Just alternate i-m fast on one string, but evenly and controlled. The left hand does this:

E--5-3-2-5-3-2-3-2-5-3-2-5-3-2-3-2- etc...
B----------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------
D------------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------

The higher pitched notes create a sort of Rumba accent. Don't accent with RH, just keep alternating evenly. So just try to keep that groove, only REALLY fast.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 17:16:53

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to seanm)

quote:

I think duende is hitting on the key. That the hands help each other

I don't play any fast picado at all, but since Grisha's audio post I've been playing around a little bit for fun.
It certainly feels to me that when you have both hands going, you get a sort of better "mental map" of what's going on...

(I'm not a "picadoite" (picadophile?), but this is my own basic observation for what it's worth.)

I can't say I'm really into "torturing" myself with exercises, scales etc
That would make me lose interest in the guitar altogether..
Life's hard enough..

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 19:56:57

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

can't say I'm really into "torturing" myself with exercises, scales etc
That would make me lose interest in the guitar altogether..

funny how we alla are diffrent. that is what gets me going..or one of the things. to improve to get better etc.

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 20:31:44

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

The reason you guys think two hands are faster than one is you never practiced the one hand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2006 23:15:48

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

i practice a lot of right hand now when i play fingerstyle guitar. arpegios,picados,string-skipping and so on it helps a lot.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2006 5:01:11

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

If Grisha or Todd came up over my shoulder and did the right hand picado to a steady tempo, I could sychronize with him with my left hand, by not thinking about what he is doing, just being in rhythm. You have to sort of do that with yourself, and you will see why you need the right hand to really know what it is doing and be consistant to achieve speed and cleanliness.

Ricardo

This is kind of what I was saying, if you had an automatic picker for the RH, so you could really coordinate the LH and work on that. I think that flaws in the way we use the LH end up going back and messing the RH up. If you coordinate both hands to the RHYTHM, as opposed to each other, you should be able to maximize your potential, at least that is my theory.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2006 5:06:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14835
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

if you had an automatic picker for the RH,

Sigh, if only....

Well, that is the point of focusing on the RH. If you DID have a machine like RH, you could actually play good period. LOL!

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2006 5:54:19

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and coordination (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I wouldn't be that hard, would it? At least for one string. I'm envisioning a simple motor turning one gear that has a pick attached to it. The motor would have to be controllable gradually, and with that control you could figure out the metronome #s and write it at various parts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2006 18:03:40