Picado and coordination (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Picado and coordination: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=29429



Message

Miguel de Maria -> Picado and coordination (Jan. 20 2006 21:42:39)

I was meditating on picado recently, and remembered some things I've read about coordination.

What is it, essentially, that is difficult about good picado?


1. the RH and arm must perform rapid, precise patterns of movement
2. the LH and arm must perform rapid, precise patterns of movement which are assymetrical with the RH
3. these patterns, or more specifically their effects, must be coordinated to an incredibly precise degree to a specific rhythmic pulse

If we agree with these, assumptions, we see that there is a lot to do. If you are looking at a run that is giving you trouble, you might ask where the problem occurs.

Is it a fault of the RH, LH, coordination, or rhythm? Keep in mind that we can do something well with one hand, but if we are forced to repeat it while doing something else with the other hand, we lose efficiency. We may lose a good 20-50% of our efficiency when we split our attention.

This is a good argument for hands-seperate practice. I have done a lot of RH only practice, but what about LH? It would seem just as important and worthy of study, if only to make it as sure-fingered as the RH. It may be true that if there is a weakness in either hand, that weakness will cause the body to seize up. That's when we stumble and the picado catches, or the hand tenses and misses a string. Caused by uncertainty.

What about coordination? Probably the best way is to use an impartial observer, Ye Olde Metronome. The precision must be complete, you must make sure your strokes and frets are as accurate to the extent your senses will let you. The only way to determine this would be paying complete attention. The other way would be when you mess up, that will tell you if you are doing it right!

It comes to mind there should be an automated picking machine, connected to a metronome. It could pick, say sixteenth notes at 120 bpm. Then your job would be to make the LH do its required actions for the scale to sound.



koella -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 20 2006 21:56:08)

Nice observation Miguel.
But what about this : When I do a picado run with a descending scale, I can do that faster then a picado on just one open string. Seems my left hand helps to force my righthand to keep up the speed. ( may have sth. to do with the fact I am faster with a pick)



XXX -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 20 2006 22:37:45)

I guess descending scales are easier because it fits better to the movement of an apoyando stroke.

The movement of hiting a string is easier to do than the preparing, the "stretching".
Logically it makes no sense to me, but before I started with flamenco and picado, I found the descending scale harder to play.



ToddK -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 0:28:29)

Luckily, pretty much every run you'll hear, in a flamenco solo,
is descending. So i wouldnt fight it. :)

TK



sorin popovici -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 1:35:28)

good post Miguel
grisha sugested an automated ami picado , that will work more on the coordonation of left
cause u can get much faster "ami" picado then "im".It's evident that u can train "ami " picado,
after all u can play recuerdos .classical tremolo is good cause it trains u to be able to play
fast ami tirando.Playing picado ami however means to be able to accentuate with ami ,with
whatever finger u want.I'm working on it ...after that left hand coord will not be a problem.

But still ...that's playing in position , but what about streches and shifting? That's the really hard part .The RH for us fingerstyle players is the easy part usually.

The advantage to have played electric is that electric players do a lot of shifting and slides.
They usually slide between a chord and another when they do riffs.This ...we dont do,and it
is necesarry(spell it for me pls)



gshaviv -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 2:00:59)

quote:

Luckily, pretty much every run you'll hear, in a flamenco solo,
is descending. So i wouldnt fight it. :)


Impetu has an ascending picado run. I also play a Manolo Sanlucar buleria falseta that starts with an ascending picado run. So I'm not sure I agree with that statement.



ToddK -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 9:40:13)

Impetu is not an easy piece, but the picado's, are the easiest
thing about that piece. Its on the fast side, yeah, but the runs
are only 8th notes. They shouldnt be a problem for anyone
with a halfway decent picado.

Sure, there's gonna be an ascending run here or there.
But for the most part, i stick by my statement.

Mostly you will find, especially in the trad stuff (sabicas/serranito)
the runs are 95% descending.
I have only one fast ascending run in my whole repetoire.

TK



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 13:42:30)

Todd's right. Sure, there are exceptions. But, hey, you remind me of something, Todd. In Virtuoissmo (sp?), Serranito's debut, there's a incredibly crushing, huge picado run that goes up and down, if memory serves me right.



ToddK -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 15:01:42)

Yeah, you'll hear them, no doubt.

im just saying, for the most part, the super fast stuff is descending.



koella -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 15:15:42)

I'm not fighting it todd. [&:]

Still seems strange that when i-m are playing on an open string ( so there is no possible tension caused by the left hand) it still moves slower then when left hand is involved. Does anybody else have that "problem".



duende -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 15:26:40)

oh yes. i can´t play fast at all on one single string, not with a pick either.
But if i play scales and stuff i can go much much much faster. Both hands seem to help each other. with fingers i can only go faster. not much much much[&o]



seanm -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 15:37:09)

I think duende is hitting on the key. That the hands help each other. I think that having a target to play toward helps coordination as opposed to simply repeating the same note. However, if you focus on the downbeat of sixteenth notes, say, on an open string you can ussually pick up the speed because you have that rhythmic target to help the right hand coordinate.

Sean



XXX -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 16:22:18)

I think it is reasonable, because the open string is long and it hat also a high action (distance between top and string. But its not something you cant handle without practicing [:)]



ToddK -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 16:27:08)

I think a big part is something Grisha and Miguel
were talking about, and that is "grouping.

Group things into 3's 4's 6's. A 12 note line becomes 4 groups of 3's.
Practice the 3's until its virtually one movement.
Though the fingers still move seperately, your brain begins to see
the group as one entity, therefore easier to deal with at higher speeds.

TK



Ricardo -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 16:56:24)

Don't let the left hand "help" the right hand to coordinate or synchronize. That is why some guys can't go as fast on one string. Make sure the RIGHT hand (picking hand) is the boss, putting a rhythmic and speed leash on the left hand. Most guys can go faster with the left hand. You need to have both hands separate and controlled, your speed limit is how fast you can control the right hand.

I am faster with the left hand. If Grisha or Todd came up over my shoulder and did the right hand picado to a steady tempo, I could sychronize with him with my left hand, by not thinking about what he is doing, just being in rhythm. You have to sort of do that with yourself, and you will see why you need the right hand to really know what it is doing and be consistant to achieve speed and cleanliness.

Ricardo



Ricardo -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 17:04:54)

Here is a picking exercise that helps control string crossings. You have to alternate to achieve speed. You can do the same to train i-m strokes. Start with i, and alternate. Notice the note on the 1st string is always "m".

E----------0---------------0------0---------------
B-0-1-3------3-1-0-1-3-----3-------3-1-0------
G---------------------------------------------------
D----------------------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------------------

Ricardo



MarkMc -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 17:13:48)

Hi Ricardo,

This is great stuff! When practicing picado, I do notice the synchronization issues between the LH & RH. What you said makes sense, thanks.

And thanks for the exercise as well. [:)]

Mark



Ricardo -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 17:16:53)

One more thing to help the left hand with rhythm. Just alternate i-m fast on one string, but evenly and controlled. The left hand does this:

E--5-3-2-5-3-2-3-2-5-3-2-5-3-2-3-2- etc...
B----------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------
D------------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------

The higher pitched notes create a sort of Rumba accent. Don't accent with RH, just keep alternating evenly. So just try to keep that groove, only REALLY fast.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 19:56:57)

quote:

I think duende is hitting on the key. That the hands help each other


I don't play any fast picado at all, but since Grisha's audio post I've been playing around a little bit for fun.
It certainly feels to me that when you have both hands going, you get a sort of better "mental map" of what's going on...[:-]

(I'm not a "picadoite" (picadophile?), but this is my own basic observation for what it's worth.)

I can't say I'm really into "torturing" myself with exercises, scales etc
That would make me lose interest in the guitar altogether..
Life's hard enough..[:D]

cheers

Ron



duende -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 20:31:44)

quote:

can't say I'm really into "torturing" myself with exercises, scales etc
That would make me lose interest in the guitar altogether..


funny how we alla are diffrent. that is what gets me going..or one of the things. to improve to get better etc.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 21 2006 23:15:48)

The reason you guys think two hands are faster than one is you never practiced the one hand.



duende -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 22 2006 5:01:11)

i practice a lot of right hand now when i play fingerstyle guitar. arpegios,picados,string-skipping and so on it helps a lot.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 22 2006 5:06:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


If Grisha or Todd came up over my shoulder and did the right hand picado to a steady tempo, I could sychronize with him with my left hand, by not thinking about what he is doing, just being in rhythm. You have to sort of do that with yourself, and you will see why you need the right hand to really know what it is doing and be consistant to achieve speed and cleanliness.

Ricardo


This is kind of what I was saying, if you had an automatic picker for the RH, so you could really coordinate the LH and work on that. I think that flaws in the way we use the LH end up going back and messing the RH up. If you coordinate both hands to the RHYTHM, as opposed to each other, you should be able to maximize your potential, at least that is my theory.



Ricardo -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 22 2006 5:54:19)

quote:

if you had an automatic picker for the RH,


Sigh, if only....[:D]

Well, that is the point of focusing on the RH. If you DID have a machine like RH, you could actually play good period. LOL![:D]


Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado and coordination (Jan. 22 2006 18:03:40)

I wouldn't be that hard, would it? At least for one string. I'm envisioning a simple motor turning one gear that has a pick attached to it. The motor would have to be controllable gradually, and with that control you could figure out the metronome #s and write it at various parts.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET