Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
RE: early history of rondeñas
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login | |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14743
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
RE: early history of rondeñas (in reply to Kevin)
|
|
|
quote:
Keeping twelves? For the cante, yes...when the singer started in the middle of the compas, the guitar maintained 12's feel and put the reverse cambio at 1,2,3 to keep it together, as was always done by modern players since N. Ricardo and Melchor. The reverse cambio was not done "by some early guitarists", Moraito just did it for Jesus Mendez first CD. He got it from his uncle (who ALWAYS did it) and others. Montoya did it too. Yes you can do it and not get dirty looks trust me. If you say it's 1904 fine, the clip was loaded by Aloysius and implication was that it was "old and primitive" toque, I assumed it was among the EARLIEST examples from that wax cylinder collection. I certainly hear it differently than you guys, sounds WELL established to me. Arcas I don't consider more "flamenco" just because he snagged a bit of cante melody for his Rondeña. Not based on what I was reading in those scores, sorry. Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 29 2016 5:11:58
|
|
Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
|
RE: early history of rondeñas (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
Let me get this straight. So, are you saying based on hearing this one example that you can definitively say that 12s and reverse combo are codified (by which we mean that it is understood by all flamencos or at least by enough to be considered culturaly/practically relevant)? I can agree that there are similarities in the early toques heard from 1895-1908 with those of Montoya and Ricardo but the way they sit in the groove in those early recordings has a 3pulse to it in some cases. They are pounding it out. Rap on the table in threes and its easy to follow but try doing hemiola (12s) to any of the recordings of Mochuelo, Sr Acosta. Also, sometimes the cante begins after beat 6, a half-compas late. In which case you could either argue that the accompaniment is squared after the cante enters, or it is squared before and a half compas ends the phrase. As for Arcas, I don't think he was a flamenco guitarist. Only that what he plays is comparable to what many other guitarists considered to be flamencos were doing. And we know, thanks to Rioja, that Arcas was an inspiration for later guitarists. Marin includes an Arcas solea falseta and it is not found in Arcas solea which suggests that he knew how to phrase a "falseta" even if his works were more in the folk/pop (not classical) vein. You might want to listen to those other early recordings. To me, they suggest that although there was some codification (enough that we already recognize it as flamenco), there were still many things that were being explored. It is too bad there were no palmeros on these recordings.
_____________________________
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 29 2016 7:01:09
|
|
New Messages |
No New Messages |
Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
Locked w/ New Messages |
Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.046875 secs.
|