RE: early history of rondeñas (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: early history of rondeñas (Jul. 28 2016 21:15:07)

quote:

I think things were stillbe codified into the early twentieth century and to call anything flamenco before 1900 or so is projecting our own present view onto the past.


What about the Manuel Lopez accompaniment of Solea above? Keeping 12s, reverse combo etc, seems pretty well "codified". Only thing was playing the bassline falseta under one of the tercios is not done anymore. It's 1890's recording. Arcas playing like THAT I would have to hear it to believe it.



Kevin -> RE: early history of rondeñas (Jul. 29 2016 0:09:20)

quote:

What about the Manuel Lopez accompaniment of Solea above? Keeping 12s, reverse combo etc, seems pretty well "codified". Only thing was playing the bassline falseta under one of the tercios is not done anymore. It's 1890's recording. Arcas playing like THAT I would have to hear it to believe it.


Arcas is 1867. That doesn't make him less flamenco, especially when compared with El Murciano IMO. These recording are around 1904 (all of the 1895--1902 recording are more grainy).

Keeping twelves? Count out the first compas pattern. A full compas and then cierre to beat four. He then eats a beat (12 or 6) and begins the falseta on beat 12 (or 6 which is now 1). You are always questioning why 12 or six and not sometimes three. Reread the Marin, he has some extra 3s in the Solea. Not yet codified...by codified I mean that all guitarists would have understood the conventions. Art is eternally evolving, even a conservative art like flamenco.

Reverse combo? Some early guitarists do that but it sounds more like they impose a back related dominant than they actually "knew" what to do. Such is art. Dare you to do that now! Some singers might appreciate others but some will definitely give you a grimace.

And you cannot say the bulerias existed much less was codified until after 1910 sometime. It doesn't exist on those recordings in name (although in practice it does). All the chuflas are major melody bulerias but when the singer goes phrygian the guitarists stay major. Sounds harsh. They were still struggling to find their accompaniment.



Ricardo -> RE: early history of rondeñas (Jul. 29 2016 5:11:58)

quote:

Keeping twelves?


For the cante, yes...when the singer started in the middle of the compas, the guitar maintained 12's feel and put the reverse cambio at 1,2,3 to keep it together, as was always done by modern players since N. Ricardo and Melchor. The reverse cambio was not done "by some early guitarists", Moraito just did it for Jesus Mendez first CD. He got it from his uncle (who ALWAYS did it) and others. Montoya did it too. Yes you can do it and not get dirty looks trust me. If you say it's 1904 fine, the clip was loaded by Aloysius and implication was that it was "old and primitive" toque, I assumed it was among the EARLIEST examples from that wax cylinder collection. I certainly hear it differently than you guys, sounds WELL established to me. Arcas I don't consider more "flamenco" just because he snagged a bit of cante melody for his Rondeña. Not based on what I was reading in those scores, sorry.

Ricardo



Kevin -> RE: early history of rondeñas (Jul. 29 2016 7:01:09)

Let me get this straight. So, are you saying based on hearing this one example that you can definitively say that 12s and reverse combo are codified (by which we mean that it is understood by all flamencos or at least by enough to be considered culturaly/practically relevant)?

I can agree that there are similarities in the early toques heard from 1895-1908 with those of Montoya and Ricardo but the way they sit in the groove in those early recordings has a 3pulse to it in some cases. They are pounding it out. Rap on the table in threes and its easy to follow but try doing hemiola (12s) to any of the recordings of Mochuelo, Sr Acosta. Also, sometimes the cante begins after beat 6, a half-compas late. In which case you could either argue that the accompaniment is squared after the cante enters, or it is squared before and a half compas ends the phrase.

As for Arcas, I don't think he was a flamenco guitarist. Only that what he plays is comparable to what many other guitarists considered to be flamencos were doing. And we know, thanks to Rioja, that Arcas was an inspiration for later guitarists. Marin includes an Arcas solea falseta and it is not found in Arcas solea which suggests that he knew how to phrase a "falseta" even if his works were more in the folk/pop (not classical) vein.

You might want to listen to those other early recordings. To me, they suggest that although there was some codification (enough that we already recognize it as flamenco), there were still many things that were being explored. It is too bad there were no palmeros on these recordings.



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