Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea

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Wheater

Posts: 21
Joined: Jun. 10 2011

Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea

Let me start off by saying, I'm not trying to spark any heated debate. I am seeking information for educational and historical purposes.

I bought the solea falseta collection from Norman Kliman (which is awesome by the way!), and I'm noticing that soleas from the early 1900s, Ramon Montoya being the guitarista I'm listening to, plays at a much faster tempo than current day solea.

I am wondering a couple of things, first, am I on the right track here, or am I hearing things incorrectly? And two, if older soleas were played much faster, why is that the case and what may have driven solea to slow down?

Older solea falsetas seem more fundamental in terms of technique, but played extremely fast which greatly increases the difficulty. While modern soleas seem to have increased rhythmic and technical complexity at slower tempos.

Has anyone else noticed this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 2:06:57

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

Tablao and theatre/playing for dancers slowed things down. But can't say modern solea IS slower. I have many many modern solea in my collection that are very fast, most of them cante albums. Solo guitar leans towards slower likely the same reason playing por baile is slower, more drama.
I would agree that modern playing is more rhythmically complex than in Montoyas time, but not necessarily slower, these syncopations and rhythmic complexities show up even when solea is played very fast. Just listen to modern vs old school buleria, way more funk in it now a days.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 3:56:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

Yes, the dance both slowed down and boxed in the cante and toque.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 6:24:31

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Yes, the dance both slowed down and boxed in the cante and toque.

I like your phrase about how the dance "boxed in the cante and toque," Ricardo. It suggests that the two most important elements of the flamenco triad have been held hostage by the third and least important.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 12:48:47

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

It may also depend, to an extent, of the setting. Cante, baile or solo toque. For instance, to take another palo, the sung seguiriyas I've heard lately have mostly been slow to fairly slow, with a lot of "flexibility" in tempo. The solo guitarra ones have been on fixed tempo and fast...like buleria fast, from the very beginning. But then again even that is a huge generalization. I'd suspect you're right in saying that solea has slowed down since Montoya's time and the explanation of baile boxing everything in and slowing it down is the right one I think. But there's still plenty of room for personal interpretation. Just last week I heard a fast solea (cante y toque) though I think the whole think would fall in the "valiente" category, which I guess in a way it would make sense that it'd be somewhat faster than other solea.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 20:48:17

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

quote:

I'm noticing that soleas from the early 1900s, Ramon Montoya being the guitarista I'm listening to, plays at a much faster tempo than current day solea.

Remember that in those days, both guitar pitch and the speed recordings were made at were much more variable than nowadays. This makes remastering a non-trivial problem.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 21:45:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Piwin)

It's not so complex. Solea was always what we think of now as "solea por Buleria"...and it's only because of the dancing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2016 14:44:36

jsndlng

Posts: 20
Joined: Dec. 29 2014

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to BarkellWH)

I thought the hierarchy was Cante Baile Toque not Cante Toque Baile?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2016 9:40:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to jsndlng)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jsndlng

I thought the hierarchy was Cante Baile Toque not Cante Toque Baile?

There is only a hierarchy of individual artists. From there it is what or who is more important to the aficionado.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 17:09:29

jsndlng

Posts: 20
Joined: Dec. 29 2014

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Ricardo)

Ah ha. Being completely alone in my studies I'd have to put the Toque up front then ... Are there many who sing and play same time?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 19:25:16

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to jsndlng)

I do. But I'd hate to be the person who has to listen to it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 19:41:44

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

quote:

Are there many who sing and play same time?

Course, but very few who do it well. I'm with Piwin, I do it and I'm on rhythm but I sound like a bad mariachi.

There was some youtubes of this guy.....Kike or Kiko or something who I thought was pretty good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 19:48:39

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to jsndlng)

quote:

Are there many who sing and play same time?

Not many. Ricardo Fernández del Moral won the Lámpara Minera en La Unión in 2012

Antonio Carrion on occasion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 20:32:09

Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Are there many who sing and play same time?

Not many. Ricardo Fernández del Moral won the Lámpara Minera en La Unión in 2012

---

Antonio Carrion on occasion.

There was also Manuel Molina

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 20:58:45

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

but I sound like a bad mariachi

Well, I still dream of the day when I'll sound as good as a bad mariachi! I'm more of a nails-on-a-chalkboard kind of singer.

I should send a recording to Mark2. That would solve his neighbor issues in less than 10 secs!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 21:12:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

Thinking about it, bad mariachi is probably being generous to myself. lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2016 21:26:25

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Kiko_Roca)

quote:

There was also Manuel Molina

Yes, I forgot. Although I think he is the most well known, are there any others?

Of course many singers and dancers also play the guitar very well. But few singers perform professionally accompanying themselves.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2016 9:44:33

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

Yeah there's a couple videos floating around of Camaron accompanying himself and a friend of mine has some videos from a party where Farruquito does it pretty impressively too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2016 13:24:20

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Leñador)

Fernando Terremoto was supposed to be a very good tocaor, any footage?

Farru also plays and sings but it's too flamenquito for me.

Of course the tocaors also sing.
Paco Cepero.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2016 13:55:53

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

Ole Paco!
Great vids Orson!
I like farruquitos style of playing, funky stuff. He still likes to ham it up of course.

I see Jose Luis and corona bottles, I'm guessing this is Miami?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2016 5:07:20

Gabewolf

Posts: 67
Joined: Feb. 12 2016
From: Cleveland, Ohio

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

I've been learning santuario, a solea by Paco Peña and he plays it a little faster than modern solea. My guitar teacher says that solea has gotten slower over the decades.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2016 23:18:57

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to orsonw)

El Nino de Elche does so as well at times:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2016 9:46:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Fernando Terremoto was supposed to be a very good tocaor, any footage?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2016 17:54:48

Richard Ogilby

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

Slowed down?In order to gauge this premise I would think you'd need to time out Ricardo ,Melchor,Luis Yance, Perico del Lunar,Diego,Manolo de huelva and alot of others.Just to think if there is any difference comes to mind as; no.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2016 18:24:32

Richard Ogilby

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Ricardo)

Wow
Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2016 18:27:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Richard Ogilby)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Ogilby

Slowed down?In order to gauge this premise I would think you'd need to time out Ricardo ,Melchor,Luis Yance, Perico del Lunar,Diego,Manolo de huelva and alot of others.Just to think if there is any difference comes to mind as; no.

They used to play around 130 bpm...now a days it's like 65 bpm.

I blame the dance 100%

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2016 18:27:31

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

quote:

Slowed down?In order to gauge this premise I would think you'd need to time out Ricardo ,Melchor,Luis Yance, Perico del Lunar,Diego,Manolo de huelva and alot of others.Just to think if there is any difference comes to mind as; no.

????
I did my best to find something solo in the last 20 years that's anywhere near 130 and I could not. I have some cante that does but that's not really what were talking about.....

quote:

I blame the dance 100%

Eso. I've heard this from many high credential singers and players.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2016 19:09:56

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Leñador)

I don't really get this argument. If it's the dance that's responsible for slowing things down, wouldn't it fall to reason to look for cante/dance examples and not solo guitar?
If the idea is that guitarists have adapted to dancers and got used to playing slower when accompanying them and somehow transferred that to solo guitar, then fine, but I'd again take the example of seguiriyas where the dance is still fairly slow (at least at the beginning) whereas a lot of modern solo guitar seguiriyas are incredibly fast from beginning to end. The guitarists did that on their own, based on their own aesthetic tastes. Maybe they were inspired by how solea was being played with dancers, but to transfer that into the realm of solo guitar is entirely on them (us

). The same goes for boxed-in seguiriyas: with dance it's boxed in but with just cante and guitar it is still very elastic. That solo guitar seguiriyas are now also boxed in is a guitarist's choice.

I don't see how we can "blame" anyone else but guitarists when it comes to solo guitar. It's just that, solo guitar.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2016 19:45:57

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (in reply to Wheater)

quote:

I don't see how we can "blame" anyone else but guitarists when it comes to solo guitar. It's just that, solo guitar.

That's fair, but baile was how we got here. It certainly on guitarists for going with it.
For seguiriya I feel like I hear it all over the map for solo guitar and cante.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2016 19:54:18