Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Full Version)

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Wheater -> Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 6 2016 2:06:57)

Let me start off by saying, I'm not trying to spark any heated debate. I am seeking information for educational and historical purposes.

I bought the solea falseta collection from Norman Kliman (which is awesome by the way!), and I'm noticing that soleas from the early 1900s, Ramon Montoya being the guitarista I'm listening to, plays at a much faster tempo than current day solea.

I am wondering a couple of things, first, am I on the right track here, or am I hearing things incorrectly? And two, if older soleas were played much faster, why is that the case and what may have driven solea to slow down?

Older solea falsetas seem more fundamental in terms of technique, but played extremely fast which greatly increases the difficulty. While modern soleas seem to have increased rhythmic and technical complexity at slower tempos.

Has anyone else noticed this?



Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 6 2016 3:56:12)

Tablao and theatre/playing for dancers slowed things down. But can't say modern solea IS slower. I have many many modern solea in my collection that are very fast, most of them cante albums. Solo guitar leans towards slower likely the same reason playing por baile is slower, more drama.
I would agree that modern playing is more rhythmically complex than in Montoyas time, but not necessarily slower, these syncopations and rhythmic complexities show up even when solea is played very fast. Just listen to modern vs old school buleria, way more funk in it now a days.



Ricardo -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 6 2016 6:24:31)

Yes, the dance both slowed down and boxed in the cante and toque.



BarkellWH -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 6 2016 12:48:47)

quote:

Yes, the dance both slowed down and boxed in the cante and toque.


I like your phrase about how the dance "boxed in the cante and toque," Ricardo. It suggests that the two most important elements of the flamenco triad have been held hostage by the third and least important.

Bill



Piwin -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 6 2016 20:48:17)

It may also depend, to an extent, of the setting. Cante, baile or solo toque. For instance, to take another palo, the sung seguiriyas I've heard lately have mostly been slow to fairly slow, with a lot of "flexibility" in tempo. The solo guitarra ones have been on fixed tempo and fast...like buleria fast, from the very beginning. But then again even that is a huge generalization. I'd suspect you're right in saying that solea has slowed down since Montoya's time and the explanation of baile boxing everything in and slowing it down is the right one I think. But there's still plenty of room for personal interpretation. Just last week I heard a fast solea (cante y toque) though I think the whole think would fall in the "valiente" category, which I guess in a way it would make sense that it'd be somewhat faster than other solea.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 6 2016 21:45:21)

quote:

I'm noticing that soleas from the early 1900s, Ramon Montoya being the guitarista I'm listening to, plays at a much faster tempo than current day solea.


Remember that in those days, both guitar pitch and the speed recordings were made at were much more variable than nowadays. This makes remastering a non-trivial problem.



Ricardo -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 7 2016 14:44:36)

It's not so complex. Solea was always what we think of now as "solea por Buleria"...and it's only because of the dancing.



jsndlng -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 10 2016 9:40:28)

I thought the hierarchy was Cante Baile Toque not Cante Toque Baile?



Ricardo -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 17:09:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jsndlng

I thought the hierarchy was Cante Baile Toque not Cante Toque Baile?


There is only a hierarchy of individual artists. From there it is what or who is more important to the aficionado.



jsndlng -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 19:25:16)

Ah ha. Being completely alone in my studies I'd have to put the Toque up front then ... Are there many who sing and play same time?



Piwin -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 19:41:44)

I do. But I'd hate to be the person who has to listen to it. [:D]



Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 19:48:39)

quote:

Are there many who sing and play same time?

Course, but very few who do it well. I'm with Piwin, I do it and I'm on rhythm but I sound like a bad mariachi. [:D]
There was some youtubes of this guy.....Kike or Kiko or something who I thought was pretty good.



orsonw -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 20:32:09)

quote:

Are there many who sing and play same time?


Not many. Ricardo Fernández del Moral won the Lámpara Minera en La Unión in 2012



Antonio Carrion on occasion.




Kiko_Roca -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 20:58:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Are there many who sing and play same time?


Not many. Ricardo Fernández del Moral won the Lámpara Minera en La Unión in 2012

---

Antonio Carrion on occasion.




There was also Manuel Molina




Piwin -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 21:12:42)

quote:

but I sound like a bad mariachi


Well, I still dream of the day when I'll sound as good as a bad mariachi! I'm more of a nails-on-a-chalkboard kind of singer. [8|] I should send a recording to Mark2. That would solve his neighbor issues in less than 10 secs![:D]



Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 11 2016 21:26:25)

Thinking about it, bad mariachi is probably being generous to myself. lol



orsonw -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 12 2016 9:44:33)

quote:

There was also Manuel Molina


Yes, I forgot. Although I think he is the most well known, are there any others?

Of course many singers and dancers also play the guitar very well. But few singers perform professionally accompanying themselves.



Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 12 2016 13:24:20)

Yeah there's a couple videos floating around of Camaron accompanying himself and a friend of mine has some videos from a party where Farruquito does it pretty impressively too.



orsonw -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 12 2016 13:55:53)

Fernando Terremoto was supposed to be a very good tocaor, any footage?



Farru also plays and sings but it's too flamenquito for me. [&:]


Of course the tocaors also sing.
Paco Cepero.



Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 13 2016 5:07:20)

Ole Paco!
Great vids Orson!
I like farruquitos style of playing, funky stuff. He still likes to ham it up of course. [:D]
I see Jose Luis and corona bottles, I'm guessing this is Miami?



Gabewolf -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 14 2016 23:18:57)

I've been learning santuario, a solea by Paco Peña and he plays it a little faster than modern solea. My guitar teacher says that solea has gotten slower over the decades.



Piwin -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 24 2016 9:46:22)

El Nino de Elche does so as well at times:




Ricardo -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 24 2016 17:54:48)

quote:

Fernando Terremoto was supposed to be a very good tocaor, any footage?





Richard Ogilby -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 18:24:32)

Slowed down?In order to gauge this premise I would think you'd need to time out Ricardo ,Melchor,Luis Yance, Perico del Lunar,Diego,Manolo de huelva and alot of others.Just to think if there is any difference comes to mind as; no.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 18:27:03)

Wow
Thanks



Ricardo -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 18:27:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Ogilby

Slowed down?In order to gauge this premise I would think you'd need to time out Ricardo ,Melchor,Luis Yance, Perico del Lunar,Diego,Manolo de huelva and alot of others.Just to think if there is any difference comes to mind as; no.


They used to play around 130 bpm...now a days it's like 65 bpm. [;)]



I blame the dance 100%




Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 19:09:56)

quote:

Slowed down?In order to gauge this premise I would think you'd need to time out Ricardo ,Melchor,Luis Yance, Perico del Lunar,Diego,Manolo de huelva and alot of others.Just to think if there is any difference comes to mind as; no.

????
I did my best to find something solo in the last 20 years that's anywhere near 130 and I could not. I have some cante that does but that's not really what were talking about.....
quote:

I blame the dance 100%

Eso. I've heard this from many high credential singers and players.



Piwin -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 19:45:57)

I don't really get this argument. If it's the dance that's responsible for slowing things down, wouldn't it fall to reason to look for cante/dance examples and not solo guitar?
If the idea is that guitarists have adapted to dancers and got used to playing slower when accompanying them and somehow transferred that to solo guitar, then fine, but I'd again take the example of seguiriyas where the dance is still fairly slow (at least at the beginning) whereas a lot of modern solo guitar seguiriyas are incredibly fast from beginning to end. The guitarists did that on their own, based on their own aesthetic tastes. Maybe they were inspired by how solea was being played with dancers, but to transfer that into the realm of solo guitar is entirely on them (us [:D]). The same goes for boxed-in seguiriyas: with dance it's boxed in but with just cante and guitar it is still very elastic. That solo guitar seguiriyas are now also boxed in is a guitarist's choice.

I don't see how we can "blame" anyone else but guitarists when it comes to solo guitar. It's just that, solo guitar.



Leñador -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 19:54:18)

quote:

I don't see how we can "blame" anyone else but guitarists when it comes to solo guitar. It's just that, solo guitar.


That's fair, but baile was how we got here. It certainly on guitarists for going with it.
For seguiriya I feel like I hear it all over the map for solo guitar and cante.



Piwin -> RE: Ramon Montoya Solea vs. Modern Solea (Jul. 25 2016 20:00:23)

I think what's really going on is all of those guitarists who are too afraid to stand up to their dancer wives. [:D]
The issue then becomes whether defending a 130bpm solea is worth it when the price to pay is no sex for a month [8D]



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