Scale Length and small hands

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Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

Scale Length and small hands

I know this has been discussed umpteen times here and on other guitar forums, but I find myself with a dilemma. A few months a went to look a Conde for sale, I didn't like the Conde but the guy selling it had quite a collection of flamenco guitars including a 2004 Vicente Carrillo blanca. He told me it was his best guitar and it was not for sale but I played it and thought wow this guitar this sounds awesome. A few weeks ago he contacted me and told he was considering selling it since he had acquired some other guitars. I asked my wife if she would come to hear me play it and at first she said no and that I shouldn't buy a new guitar until my playing is good enough for the guitar. I explained to her that it is very difficult to find such a guitar here and that she should at least hear what it sounds like and finally she hesitantly said ok. So I went to look at the guitar again and when I saw it the owner had raised the strings and put Hannabach normal tension strings which are still quite high tension on it so it didn't play as well as before for me but I could tell still I loved this guitar for its sound and beauty of wood and construction. My wife said afterwards it had a grand piano sound. Then I remembered it was 660mm scale and I have small hands. Not freakish small but I have trouble making stretches across frets. For reference from my thumb to my pinky finger measures 225mm. I know that once you put a capo on scale length becomes much smaller, but I find I even have trouble stretching from the 5th fret to the 9th fret. It seems some people think scale doesn't matter and others think 650mm is much easier to play then 660mm. Often Manolo Sanlucar is mentioned as having very small hands and played a 664mm with ease. Well I am not MS and I am 58 years old and have been playing seriously for less than 2 years, I don't know much more my reach will increase. So I am torn between loving this guitar and afraid it will be difficult for me to play and having to sell it would be a very bad situation.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 21:22:12

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

If you really like the sound of the Carrillo, I would not worry about the 660 scale length. I was used to playing with 650 scale flamencas, and then I was offered the opportunity to buy a Gerundino 660 scale with a beautiful flamenco sound and tone from my teacher. It did not seem that much more of a reach than the 650s, and my left hand quickly accommodated itself to the additional stretch, slight though it was.

With practice and exercises your hand's ability to stretch and reach all required frets will increase to the point where it will no longer feel like an effort. Also to be considered is the shape of the neck and the set-up. In my opinion, though, the 660 scale length is the least of considerations. Once you accommodate yourself to the slightly additional stretch, you will be glad you did.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 21:54:40

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

First of all, listen to your wife.

Second of all, do NOT buy a guitar that feels too big for your hands or else you will end up buying a crappy (but smaller thus much easier to play) one thereafter and sticking to playing it while the "better" one sleeps in its case then gets sold at a loss...

Third of all, listen to your wife.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 22:22:52

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to BarkellWH)

That would be wishful thinking, my fingers have finite length.
Do you consider your hands to be small or large?

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 22:23:10

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to rombsix)

I already have that crappy guitar and even it is 657mm.
Yes wife is more objective than me in this.
I can't sell another guitar ever unless I happen run into a bunch of money.
This one has to be right.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 22:28:40

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

That would be wishful thinking, my fingers have finite length. Do you consider your hands to be small or large?

I consider my hands average, i.e., medium. It's not just the length of your fingers; it is developing the ability to spread them wider as well. That only comes with exercise and playing.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 22:54:07

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

I already have that crappy guitar and even it is 657mm.

Does it play like butter and quite effortlessly to your left hand?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 23:05:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Play a bass guitar for a few minutes and your 660 will feel like a ukelele

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 23:35:20

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

and put Hannabach normal tension strings which are still quite high tension

657 to 660 is no difference at all......

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 23:47:30

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

In theory, but I already have trouble on my guitar and I measured the first few frets with a digital caliper on the Carrillo to have a greater distance. Not sure my guitar even has the frets spaced right for 657mm will have to check. Maybe I should go to a random guitar store and try a 650mm classical or whatever.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 0:09:33

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

First of all, don't listen to your wife.

Second of all, put a capo on the first fret, boom 623 mm scale.

Third of all, don't listen to Ramzi.

And if all else fails, wait and order a guitar from me

(just kidding about the wife part, she sounds pretty understanding all things considered)

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 0:23:38

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Andy,

I have not forgotten, you are still one of my options.
Too bad we are on opposite sides of the country.
Let me know when you can bring some guitars to CA.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 0:37:00

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Third of all, don't listen to Ramzi.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 2:54:22

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Forth of all listen to Andy get a cejilla.

Fifth of all don't listen to Ricardo because he's never seen a ukulele and we know basses sound like a bag of farts that was stepped on.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 3:41:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Cervantes
You answered your own questions in the original post.

You played and liked the guitar a lot, then you started thinking and now you dont know.
Does that say something to you? Maybe your hands are better at stretching than your brain is. In that case, you are just normal.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 6:53:23

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Cervantes,

FWIW, I think you should go for the VC blanca if you are able to buy it.

I don't think the differences of 650mm to 660mm scales are as significant as it might seem, a bit of practise and time will let you get to grips with the longer scale. I found doing warm up exercises and practises increased the ability to stretch across frets.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 11:11:01

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

I have owned guitars with scale lengths from 650 to 664. As my arthritic fingers got stiffer some guitars became more difficult to play. The two most difficult were a 650 and a 664. So what message do we take from this? Never measure or look at the numbers before you play an instrument - let your body tell you what you need to know. And don't forget the profile of the neck can sometimes be a more significant factor than the scale length.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 15:24:53

drhildr

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 1 2016

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to RobJe)

I agree with Robje - the neck size seems (to me in any case) have a big bearing on how you a guitar feels as you play it. I think its a holistic picture and is all in the overall "feel"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 16:05:29

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Cervantes, you laid out your concern and the Foro has spoken. The consensus is in. Go for the Vicente Carrillo blanca, and go for it before you lose it to someone else who buys it. You have been over-thinking the scale-length and finger-span. They are not a problem because, as so many here have written (including me), you will accommodate yourself to the slight increase in scale.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 17:19:54

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Maybe your hands are better at stretching than your brain is. In that case, you are just normal.

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 17:58:48

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Thanks all for the feedback.
I think the prudent thing to do would be to go back and play the guitar again and pay attention to how difficult the stretches are. I wasn't really doing that the last time and having my wife there was making me nervous. If flamenco guitars were not so difficult to find here I would just wait another 6 months or year. I could probably find another Carrillo or similar guitar in that time but not one I could see and play before buying. I have a lesson on Thursday so I ask my teacher what he thinks about it.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 18:26:09

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

Thanks all for the feedback.
I think the prudent thing to do would be to go back and play the guitar again and pay attention to how difficult the stretches are. I wasn't really doing that the last time and having my wife there was making me nervous. If flamenco guitars were not so difficult to find here I would just wait another 6 months or year. I could probably find another Carrillo or similar guitar in that time but not one I could see and play before buying. I have a lesson on Thursday so I ask my teacher what he thinks about it.

What about Guitar Salon?

1455 19th St, Santa Monica, CA 90404

It's 2 hr and 12 min driving away from your area...

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 21:45:20

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to rombsix)

I am aware of Guitar Salon. Their prices seem insanely high and a good place to shop if you have cash burning holes in your pockets. If I had $10K I am sure I could find a guitar there. For $3K they don't have much and that Carrillo would probably be more like $5K there. However it might be a good place to test out guitars of different sizes and builders.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 22:40:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Do you know about Dan Zeff Guitars in Chatsworth? Here's his Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/DanZeffGuitars/

and here's his web page with inventory and prices.

https://www.danzeffguitars.com/index.cfm

Zeff is notably cheaper than Guitarsalon, and has a good reputation. I have never bought a guitar from Guitarsalon, but if you see something you like, it wouldn't hurt to try making an offer.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2016 23:53:34

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

Third of all, don't listen to Ramzi.

Don't listen to Andy. Listen to Ramzi like you would if he was your wife

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2016 4:06:37

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Cervantes--a couple of other factors with neck feel and length. The spacing of strings at the nut can play a factor--this includes the width of the nut and the width of spacing between strings. The other factor is the shape of the neck. Some 52mm nuts can have a string spacing from about 40 to 44mm. For some this can be significant. As to scale length, a 10mm overall difference comes down to 5mm over the first 12 frets. Capo the second fret and the difference is pretty small from frets 3 to 12.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2016 9:11:42

payaso

Posts: 85
Joined: Dec. 7 2014

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)

Actually, I’m not sure that ‘go for it’ is the best advice. Nobody here has seen or heard the guitar. Could they advise you on the choice of an unseen wife? - and a guitar is a crucial partner in your life.
There is no mention of the price or how that would compare with other possible purchases. The dealer’s tactic of saying his “best’ guitar is not for sale, then discovering that it is, sounds very dodgy to me. After 2 years of flamenco, do you really have the experience to rate how good a guitar it is? And you have doubts. Whatever those doubts are, they should probably be heeded. There are lots of extremely fine guitars that you can fall in love with

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2016 11:04:58

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to payaso)

quote:

a guitar is a crucial partner in your life

Yeah - but there's a lot of polygamy on this forum!

I agree with your notes of caution - sadly you should only trust yourself and/or an expert friend - apologies to honest sellers and dealers though.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2016 11:31:01

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to payaso)

quote:

Actually, I’m not sure that ‘go for it’ is the best advice. Nobody here has seen or heard the guitar. Could they advise you on the choice of an unseen wife? - and a guitar is a crucial partner in your life.

Cervantes himself tried the Carrillo and stated, "I played it and thought wow this guitar this sounds awesome." That nobody here has seen or heard the guitar is irrelevant. Cervantes saw and played the guitar, thought it sounded "awesome," and is asking for feedback from Foro members regarding the importance of hand-size playing a 660. In choosing a guitar, as in choosing a wife, it is up to Cervantes, regardless whether or not we have seen the guitar or the wife. We Foro members can offer the advice he is seeking based on his description of the guitar as he played it, and it is up to Cervantes to heed it or reject it.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2016 13:05:49